Few Comments - New Member First Impression

Hello repgeeks,

I am relatively a new member here on the forum. I have a huge admiration for vintage rolex watches. It started with googling a used 1675 pepsi or a white 1680, then I thought it was somehow a big commitment to make at this age (spending too much of my extra savings on a gen). I was diverted to the rep watches and I registered in several forums, for some reason I liked it better here (many vintages going on sale every now and then).

Now the reason of my post is just to state my first personal impression as a new member, maybe add a few subjective comments on the forum, and, tell you about my experience so far of finding a good deal on a vintage rollie.

Anyway, I don’t intend by any mean to insult/judge anyone/anything, I am just saying my personal opinion which might be all wrong after all. Also, excuse my English, it is my third language.

Alright, so I registered here and in few other rep watches forums and been checking the forums daily for almost a month now (I have free time in the morning at work, hence writing this post). Every now and then I become interested in a thread and try to get a good deal out of it, most of the times it fails miserably.

So I’ll divide the post into two separate parts, the pros and cons. These will include my overall thoughts on everything going here, and my experience to buy a rep.

I will start with the pros;

- The very basic thing to start with is the forum interface. I must say it is very well-organized, user friendly, and invites the visitor to go through its different various posts and sections. However, I did not like much the actual design of it (colors, font, logos…).

- The amount of information found on this site is amazing. I have to say that when I first registered, I had literally zero knowledge about reps and very basic familiarity with gens. I started by searching for a good rep deal, and next thing I was googling and researching about many different brands and series. I have gained so much experience from just subscribing here and reading few posts every morning.

- The amount of help you could get from other more experienced members. This includes technical experience, direct help through posts or pms, and recommendation/advices to go with certain deals.

- The exposure to all the trusted rep dealers/modders, who are offering the best models/services currently available on the market. Before I came here, I knew three rep sites, two of which turned out to be scam sites, and one was way over-priced. Thanks to the rep forums, I now know that. Luckily did not purchase anything.

- The admin control over the page, keeping debates and interactions between the members as clean as possible, also, maintaining the rules of the posts/sale process. I am sure that the after sale support is also good.


I am sure I can come up with more pros of my experience so far, but let’s move to the cons part for now as I don’t want to stretch even more this lengthy post.

The cons; (Again, I don’t mean to offense anyone here)

- Buying a rep;
I found it extremely difficult for a new member to buy on these forums (mostly from m2ms). When I first registered, I did not care much about posting. All I wanted to do is find a good deal, buy it (hopefully as a pre-gen phase), and move on. I did find many interesting/good deals and I need to add that in few cases, I was the first one to contact the seller. I was all ready to proceed with the payment, but it always ended with the seller going with another “more present” buyer. I did not have much problem with any kind of payment, at least, if the seller has some good feedback. All the sellers preferred a VIP member with more posts.

Till now, I don’t quite get that. Every member can purchase a VIP member and increase the post count very easily. I understand that sellers are completely free to select the buyer, but I don’t see how the VIP or the post count can judge the honesty of the buyer. However, I do recognize that the only judging factor, which is very difficult to fake, might be the feedback score. In my case it’s not really relevant, since I don’t want to sell/buy several products; I’m only looking to buy one or two watches for now. This is really frustrating some times, especially when wasting a very good deal with no good reason. I somehow got hopeless at the end.

- Prices;
Personally, I was interested in buying a franken vintage rolex (still looking btw). Though my budget is flexible, but I will never spend 2-2.5k for a rep that has a 4-5k gen price. I understand that the gen parts are pricey and hard to get, but personally I would never do it. For me, 1/5 ratio would do it.

I don’t understand how rep watches maintain their value, or even in some cases they are actually appreciating. Vintage gens are representatives of an era, they have an interesting history, and become more unique over time, they are technically and aesthetically very fascinating. I will never see a rep as a “rare” item or understand how its value can increase.

I really don’t appreciate how many members expect to get the full price/cost back of their investment (Regardless whether it is a C&R or an independent project). They even include the shipping cost of the separate parts. It is a used product that has a limited lifetime. You should at least deduct a representative amount of your usage of the latter. In some cases, I really don’t trust the cost breakdown as I think that the member is trying to get a higher price than the original investment. He has all the right to do this, but personally I really don’t appreciate it.

- Comments on the sales posts;
As a new member, having very basic experience, I tend to read and value the other experienced members’ comments on the different sales posts. I don’t understand why 90% of the comments are actual useless compliments of the product offered. One week ago, I was seriously interested in a 1.5K franken, going through the various comments I thought it was a really good deal. Reading many comments like “Very gen-like!”, “Best rep out there”, “Wish I had the money”, “Wonder why it’s still here”, “I do own the gen, it’s 99% real!!”
Surely, when buying a 1.5k rep, I would not depend solely on the comments, so I went and got every single high-res photo I can get for the gen to compare it accordingly. I also got information about the maker of the rep and all the details about the separate parts/mods. I even traced the shape and the profile on Autocad and compared the exact details/thickness/dimensions/proportions of the watch. It was super-duper way off the gen.

I now see the comments as a chain-reaction, 90% of the times are compliments of the seller or the product, and very rare cases they are purely negative comments, when personally I don’t see the exact reason behind them.

Anyway, I really don’t want to attack anything here, I am just a new member looking to buy his first super rep. I apologize if I offended anyone. This is my first impression/perspective or point of view, which again, might be all wrong. Time will tell.

I am enjoying my time here; gaining much experience, looking for a good watch to get, and saving for a genuine at the same time. And btw sorry for the lengthy post.

Good points. I'll address the easiest 1st. Scroll to the bottom left of any page. You will see a box that shows "default style". Switch that to "black & white style" for a more traditional appearance. Personally I like the blue but that's just me. If the screen isn't blue.... it's not RG.

With regards to the other points. The biggest issue with M2M sales is trust. You can have post sale issues with long standing members and you can have perfect transactions with new members. Unfortunately, one can never predict so it's safer to choose the veteran member that contributes time to the site. Time logged here and post counts with meaningful content means they're a part of the community and plan to stay. In other words, they're less likely to hit and run. If your posts read like this is your home away from home, people will rarely pass you up when you make an offer. Reps are a world of their own. This is an underground hobby and members need to look out for themselves. Small claims court, PP claims etc are not an option. You can't blame members for being overly cautious. Your best course of action is to make a commitment in the form of meaningful content here. Get involved, make some friends and enjoy the hobby. RG can me much more than a source of information, it's a great place to talk about things outside of watches that interest you.

Welcome to the site and I hope you find that grail that you're chasing!

Interesting to read fresh impressions, specially on buying - pricing - comments. I wonder how You will reconsider these points one Year from now, as there is still a lot about the inner workings to understand, some things just work differently than on the gen market.

As for getting a vintage sub for $900 to $1000, the best will be to start sourcing exactly the parts You are looking for, waiting for them to arrive and sent them off to one of the specialist modders to have it vintagized and assembled. You´ll wonder how quickly that limit can be reached and over-ridden. For newcomers, imo the easiest way is to buy one from the trusted dealers listings, gain Your own experience in that field and go from there. On m2m it may be a hard time getting one with the specs You want, once it pops up at a good price, normally it´s immediately gone when You look.

Have fun, it´s what it´s all about.

I've shared your concern with the pricing.

As a personal observation: I've seen a few reps hold their value or increase in the time I've been lurking here. Some of them are reps which aren't produced anymore and have not been surpassed.

For my purchases I've researched them all and formed my own opinion and ended up happy enough.

The amount of circle jerk that goes on here makes my eyes bleed though.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by aamajzoub

- Buying a rep;
I found it extremely difficult for a new member to buy on these forums (mostly from m2ms). When I first registered, I did not care much about posting. All I wanted to do is find a good deal, buy it (hopefully as a pre-gen phase), and move on. I did find many interesting/good deals and I need to add that in few cases, I was the first one to contact the seller. I was all ready to proceed with the payment, but it always ended with the seller going with another “more present” buyer. I did not have much problem with any kind of payment, at least, if the seller has some good feedback. All the sellers preferred a VIP member with more posts.

Till now, I don’t quite get that. Every member can purchase a VIP member and increase the post count very easily. I understand that sellers are completely free to select the buyer, but I don’t see how the VIP or the post count can judge the honesty of the buyer. However, I do recognize that the only judging factor, which is very difficult to fake, might be the feedback score. In my case it’s not really relevant, since I don’t want to sell/buy several products; I’m only looking to buy one or two watches for now. This is really frustrating some times, especially when wasting a very good deal with no good reason. I somehow got hopeless at the end.

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Here is the reality of this. Since you meant no disrespect in your post, please take this the same way.

Being first means nothing to most sellers, especially the higher priced the item is. A seller is blindly sending a product to someone they have never met, and in most cases an item that violates a law or copyright. There is a lot of trust involved, especially when a buyer has so many easy ways to get out of the deal. Most sellers have a particular pecking order when selling, sometimes spelled out, and sometimes unwritten. Mine looks something like this: 1) Friends on the site. 2) People I have done business with before. 3) Members whose posts I have found helpful, and/or are recognizable because they've been around for awhile. 4) People I think I can trust, either because of feedback, the quality of posts, or because someone I know has had a good transaction with them. 5) VIP members with none of the above, because at least they are supporting the forum. 6) Everyone else, except; 6) People that have had deals go bad, are asking ridiculous questions about watches for sale, or in general have shown that they aren't good members. How far I deviate from the list depends on the item, and/or how much it's listed for. I would be more likely to sell something to a new member that I didn't care about losing, or the price was low, than I would a $1,500 franken. If that offends you (or anyone else), I'm sorry.

Yes, people can choose who they want to do business with, and the main criteria is always "Who can I trust?" Unfortunately, this also means some good people (who can be trusted) don't get a piece they want because the seller has nothing to go on. This is especially true when dealing with expensive frankens. Put a seller's cap on and your perspective will change. The seller wants a deal to go smoothly, and wants the buyer to be happy. There are way too many posts from unrealistic buyers who try to blow things up when they perceive a deal, or a product they received doesn't turn out the way they "imagined" it would. Most of the time those are inexperienced members, hence the caution that many sellers use when dealing with them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by aamajzoub

- Prices;
Personally, I was interested in buying a franken vintage rolex (still looking btw). Though my budget is flexible, but I will never spend 2-2.5k for a rep that has a 4-5k gen price. I understand that the gen parts are pricey and hard to get, but personally I would never do it. For me, 1/5 ratio would do it.

I don’t understand how rep watches maintain their value, or even in some cases they are actually appreciating. Vintage gens are representatives of an era, they have an interesting history, and become more unique over time, they are technically and aesthetically very fascinating. I will never see a rep as a “rare” item or understand how its value can increase.

I really don’t appreciate how many members expect to get the full price/cost back of their investment (Regardless whether it is a C&R or an independent project). They even include the shipping cost of the separate parts. It is a used product that has a limited lifetime. You should at least deduct a representative amount of your usage of the latter. In some cases, I really don’t trust the cost breakdown as I think that the member is trying to get a higher price than the original investment. He has all the right to do this, but personally I really don’t appreciate it.

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This is a common error in perception from inexperienced members. Trying to treat a high value franken like an off the shelf rep. They aren't.

The only thing I can say on this is build a franken from the ground up yourself, and see if you still feel this way. Especially one with parts that are nearly impossible to find. Try digging up gen dials, hands, movements, or even vintage rep parts that aren't still available. If you can't put things together yourself, try finding a watchsmith to build it for you. Try waiting years to find just the right part, and months to get it built and/or serviced. Your attitude will change once you've put several hundred hours of your own time into a build. They aren't off the shelf pieces you can call up any TD and order, and they aren't used products with a limited lifetime like a Canal Street rep. Think of them as a bespoke suit and not something you picked up at Men's Warehouse.

Also, you seem to be missing that the reality is that some frankens actually are more rare than their gen counterparts. You might find that hard to believe, but depending on the parts used, they might be. It's not difficult for certain reps to go up in price when the parts used to build them just aren't available anymore. For example, I waited a long time for a used old-school MBW hollow link 93150 bracelet to come up for sale, and I haven't recalled seeing another one for sale since I bought it over a year ago. I could easily find a gen 93150 in 15 minutes today. Granted the price would be a lot higher, but it could be found easily. Good luck finding things like a Little Hero PAM111 dial, or an Eddie Lee IWC 3717 case. Even more common things like the WM9 LV Sub (or TC's version) get scarce when they go out of production. Used or not, it affects the sale price. Some pieces depreciate quickly, some hold their value well. My DateJust franken is worth more now than the sum what I actually paid for the parts, because I shopped well when buying at the time, and the prices of the parts have gone up since I bought them.

As for what to spend on a franken (or regular rep), well, everyone has their own gen/rep ratio. Sometimes it's actually about money, and sometimes its about the build. I agree in that in some cases people over-build their frankens, and on those the prices can get out of control from a sale standpoint. Other people do a nice job of hitting the sweet spot on a build. Keep in mind, most of us that build frankens aren't doing so to sell them. Initially they are heirloom-type pieces, but something comes up (life happens, or another build tickles our fancy) that forces the sale. We built what we wanted, and intended to keep them forever. Sometimes that means throwing in an over-priced part, or taking it to that next level that wasn't really necessary. Just because you can't appreciate it, doesn't mean there isn't someone else out there who does. Because parts are sometimes nearly impossible to find, it's absolutely reasonable for people to even charge more than what they have into a build, although the forum does frown on profiteering. Bottom line is the free market is a beautiful thing. A watch will sell when it's perceived value is in line with what it's sale price is. When people have overpriced something, it won't sell.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by aamajzoub

- Comments on the sales posts;
As a new member, having very basic experience, I tend to read and value the other experienced members’ comments on the different sales posts. I don’t understand why 90% of the comments are actual useless compliments of the product offered. One week ago, I was seriously interested in a 1.5K franken, going through the various comments I thought it was a really good deal. Reading many comments like “Very gen-like!”, “Best rep out there”, “Wish I had the money”, “Wonder why it’s still here”, “I do own the gen, it’s 99% real!!”

Surely, when buying a 1.5k rep, I would not depend solely on the comments, so I went and got every single high-res photo I can get for the gen to compare it accordingly. I also got information about the maker of the rep and all the details about the separate parts/mods. I even traced the shape and the profile on Autocad and compared the exact details/thickness/dimensions/proportions of the watch. It was super-duper way off the gen.

I now see the comments as a chain-reaction, 90% of the times are compliments of the seller or the product, and very rare cases they are purely negative comments, when personally I don’t see the exact reason behind them.

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Don't get me wrong, it's great that you are doing research, but if you are going so far as to draw stuff out on Auto-Cad, just stop now. Save your money and buy a gen. Even the best franken build is only going to be as good as it's parts. It goes without saying that the more gen parts the better, but even OEM's have variances in their products. Look at vintage Rolex pieces. Two watches of the same model can look vastly different because even Rolex has variances in parts used. If someone goes and buys every genuine part for a build (so it's perfect in your eyes) you are going to complain about how much it is. You can't have it both ways (perfect, and cheap). It's all about minimizing flaws, and even then, something you think is a flaw, someone else will not.

What you need to do with sales post comments is consider the source and the comment itself. If LHOOQ says someone's 1016 build is good, it is. If Nanuq says a vintage Sub is good, it is. If Valty says a Daytona build is good, it is. If Ubi says pretty much anything is good, it is. The list goes on. If you spend enough time around the forums, you will know who the experts are on various builds. Use those comments and ignore the fluff. Unfortunately some members use the "nice build" comments to boost their post counts.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tomhorn

Here is the reality of this. Since you meant no disrespect in your post, please take this the same way.

Being first means nothing to most sellers, especially the higher priced the item is. A seller is blindly sending a product to someone they have never met, and in most cases an item that violates a law or copyright. There is a lot of trust involved, especially when a buyer has so many easy ways to get out of the deal. Most sellers have a particular pecking order when selling, sometimes spelled out, and sometimes unwritten. Mine looks something like this: 1) Friends on the site. 2) People I have done business with before. 3) Members whose posts I have found helpful, and/or are recognizable because they've been around for awhile. 4) People I think I can trust, either because of feedback, the quality of posts, or because someone I know has had a good transaction with them. 5) VIP members with none of the above, because at least they are supporting the forum. 6) Everyone else, except; 6) People that have had deals go bad, are asking ridiculous questions about watches for sale, or in general have shown that they aren't good members. How far I deviate from the list depends on the item, and/or how much it's listed for. I would be more likely to sell something to a new member that I didn't care about losing, or the price was low, than I would a $1,500 franken. If that offends you (or anyone else), I'm sorry.

Yes, people can choose who they want to do business with, and the main criteria is always "Who can I trust?" Unfortunately, this also means some good people (who can be trusted) don't get a piece they want because the seller has nothing to go on. This is especially true when dealing with expensive frankens. Put a seller's cap on and your perspective will change. The seller wants a deal to go smoothly, and wants the buyer to be happy. There are way too many posts from unrealistic buyers who try to blow things up when they perceive a deal, or a product they received doesn't turn out the way they "imagined" it would. Most of the time those are inexperienced members, hence the caution that many sellers use when dealing with them.

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I don't know why exactly, but your whole reply is from a standpoint of proving me all wrong (I really did not take this personally). I will try my best to explain why I'm thinking in this direction. Well first, I did not write this post to criticize/attack the forum and the process of selling. It is, as stated previously, my own subjective first impression on the forum and my experience so far of buying a rep watch.
I understand that there are a huge number of members that are really dedicated to this hobby. They invest serious time and effort into this, I respect that and I wish I had the skills to do it myself - I really want to get into this hobby.
However, you cannot neglect the other massive amount of members who are just looking to buy a rep watch - Like me, I wanna impress people with a rolex which I cannot afford (and that's a huge complicated debate that I prefer not to go into; Pro-rep vs anti-rep from business/ethical/ideological/economical point of view - personally I tend to be in the middle, slightly oriented towards anti-rep, but seriously I prefer not getting into this debate, especially not here) and I don’t buy the excuse of buying a rep for the design of it – there are plenty of homages/similar design brands..
I really understand your points and I tend to approve with every single one of them, however, I don't see them very valid in my own case since I did mention that I had no problem with any kind of payment. If I offered to pay via Western Union then I don't see how it can go wrong from a seller point of view. You might tell me that the buyer will intentionally leave a negative feedback or because he has limited experience or over-expectations, then this will be reported to the mods and I'm sure they will find a solution for this. I am taking full responsibility when I am offering any kind of payment, at least when the seller is reputable. So the trust issue will be only considerable when paying through a specific kind of payment that protect/prefer the buyer over the seller, then by all means I agree 100% with of what you said.
Also, my first paragraph was stating the difficulties for new members to buy rep watches. Not every member can spend time reading/posting just to be able to buy a watch here. Now personally, I think that issue is forcing a lot of potential customers to consider other/easier solutions, wasting an opportunity for this industry to grow even more. A lot of solutions can be thought of to make it somehow feasible and safe for new members to buy here directly. WU payment with control over the feedback might be the straight forward one.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tomhorn

This is a common error in perception from inexperienced members. Trying to treat a high value franken like an off the shelf rep. They aren't.

The only thing I can say on this is build a franken from the ground up yourself, and see if you still feel this way. Especially one with parts that are nearly impossible to find. Try digging up gen dials, hands, movements, or even vintage rep parts that aren't still available. If you can't put things together yourself, try finding a watchsmith to build it for you. Try waiting years to find just the right part, and months to get it built and/or serviced. Your attitude will change once you've put several hundred hours of your own time into a build. They aren't off the shelf pieces you can call up any TD and order, and they aren't used products with a limited lifetime like a Canal Street rep. Think of them as a bespoke suit and not something you picked up at Men's Warehouse.

Also, you seem to be missing that the reality is that some frankens actually are more rare than their gen counterparts. You might find that hard to believe, but depending on the parts used, they might be. It's not difficult for certain reps to go up in price when the parts used to build them just aren't available anymore. For example, I waited a long time for a used old-school MBW hollow link 93150 bracelet to come up for sale, and I haven't recalled seeing another one for sale since I bought it over a year ago. I could easily find a gen 93150 in 15 minutes today. Granted the price would be a lot higher, but it could be found easily. Good luck finding things like a Little Hero PAM111 dial, or an Eddie Lee IWC 3717 case. Even more common things like the WM9 LV Sub (or TC's version) get scarce when they go out of production. Used or not, it affects the sale price. Some pieces depreciate quickly, some hold their value well. My DateJust franken is worth more now than the sum what I actually paid for the parts, because I shopped well when buying at the time, and the prices of the parts have gone up since I bought them.

As for what to spend on a franken (or regular rep), well, everyone has their own gen/rep ratio. Sometimes it's actually about money, and sometimes its about the build. I agree in that in some cases people over-build their frankens, and on those the prices can get out of control from a sale standpoint. Other people do a nice job of hitting the sweet spot on a build. Keep in mind, most of us that build frankens aren't doing so to sell them. Initially they are heirloom-type pieces, but something comes up (life happens, or another build tickles our fancy) that forces the sale. We built what we wanted, and intended to keep them forever. Sometimes that means throwing in an over-priced part, or taking it to that next level that wasn't really necessary. Just because you can't appreciate it, doesn't mean there isn't someone else out there who does. Because parts are sometimes nearly impossible to find, it's absolutely reasonable for people to even charge more than what they have into a build, although the forum does frown on profiteering. Bottom line is the free market is a beautiful thing. A watch will sell when it's perceived value is in line with what it's sale price is. When people have overpriced something, it won't sell.

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As for the prices, I think the only factor that is dictating the prices over here is supply and demand and the knowledge of the buyer and the seller. I don’t think it has anything to do with fair or over pricing. I wish I could post some example, but I have seen some really overpriced items going relatively quick for some misleading comments and a lot of fair priced items stay for weeks for not having a high demand.
I understand that frankens are hard to make and they are money/effort/time consuming. Still, I think that if you spend x months trying to build one and you suddenly decided to sell it for some reason, you should write a clear breakdown of the overall price with a clearly defined cost of all your services/mods and sell it for a 80-85% of that amount at best scenarios. It can go much less if the item has shown clear marks of heavy usage. (This is a personal figure that I will not defend or explain, each has his own criteria).

For example for me, I will go for something like this (Random example - excluding shipping);
- Base watch/case 100-200
- Gen parts (insert, crystal, dial, crown) 1300-1800
- Mods/assembly/services 200-400
Total: 1600-2400
Fair price (IMO): 1350-1950 (that is considering the watch is still relatively new – These are only random figures)

Personally, I would only increase my budget based on the gen parts included in the deal. These are the only things that will hold value over time.
I was interested in several deals that I found to be nice catches, but could not buy them for the reasons stated previously.

While a huge number of deals go something like this;
- Base watch 158 + 33 shipping
- Mods 400
- after market/upgraded parts 300
Total: 891 (I payed that much x years ago and I expect to get the same since the watch is still new) + shipping + 3-5% paypal (this is probably a third hand watch that keeps selling at the same price)

It is like you said a free market, buyers and sellers are free to sell/buy whatever they want, I am only expressing my perspective towards this issue.
Few days ago, I was interested in a rolex on a different forum. I really wish I could post a link, but I guess it will be against the rules.

The seller got it from another seller who also got it from the original modder. It was an old version of a specific model which was upgraded to the latest model costing almost double if you went directly and bought the latest version. It was sold quick just because of few misleading comments and the original post emphasizing the rarity and importance of the watch. The original modder then reported the issue, he was surprised about the selling price of this item.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tomhorn

Don't get me wrong, it's great that you are doing research, but if you are going so far as to draw stuff out on Auto-Cad, just stop now. Save your money and buy a gen. Even the best franken build is only going to be as good as it's parts. It goes without saying that the more gen parts the better, but even OEM's have variances in their products. Look at vintage Rolex pieces. Two watches of the same model can look vastly different because even Rolex has variances in parts used. If someone goes and buys every genuine part for a build (so it's perfect in your eyes) you are going to complain about how much it is. You can't have it both ways (perfect, and cheap). It's all about minimizing flaws, and even then, something you think is a flaw, someone else will not.

What you need to do with sales post comments is consider the source and the comment itself. If LHOOQ says someone's 1016 build is good, it is. If Nanuq says a vintage Sub is good, it is. If Valty says a Daytona build is good, it is. If Ubi says pretty much anything is good, it is. The list goes on. If you spend enough time around the forums, you will know who the experts are on various builds. Use those comments and ignore the fluff. Unfortunately some members use the "nice build" comments to boost their post counts.

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Finally, regarding this last paragraph, I tend to completely disagree with you. The price is not always relative with the quality/resemblance and the more gen parts is not always the better. Some modders/members are just better than others.

I will give two examples for this;

The 1.5K franken that I was seriously interested in had numerous gen parts, but the actual base watch that was used was way off the gen. I was paying 1.5k for a 4.5k watch that only looked good on the front view and is completely off (thickness/proportions/curves) from all other sides. This is obviously a bad franken to me.
While on the other hand, I was interested in a 500euro 1680 that had only a gen crystal. However, the mid case shape/details of the bezel/dial/insert/hands were insanely similar to the gen. That was a very good deal to me. And in that specific case I was the first to pm the seller, yet gone with another member. I was really frustrated about this specific watch..

Also, please note that the latter had a swiss eta while the former was going on an Asian.

But regardless of all this, my original post was NOT about the frankens price and the resemblance of the gen. It was only tackling the misleading useless comments happening in almost all threads. Everyone has the right to post his own comments, but for me I stopped reading those, or at least taking them into consideration when buying an expensive rep.

And you can’t really know which member has enough experience to follow his comments. As I said my first intention was to describe the experience of a new member buying a rep watch (mainly from M2Ms). It does not make any sense for anyone who's looking only to buy a good rep, to spend few months researching/reading/posting in able to do so.

Anw sorry again for the long post, I don’t mean to disrespect anything/anyone here.

Hi there!

I agree with you - partly. It is difficult for a new member to judge what is sold and more comments on the quality would be very helpful.

Here is the flip side.
Many members do not appreciate negative posts in their sales thread. Even if they are objective and polite they are often misinterpreted and seen as thread-crapping.
I would also love to see more lively sales threads but it is very difficult to draw the line and the general sense has been to mostly only go this road in case of false advertising or possible scams.

I don't think this will change and I think there are 2 lessons that also cover your comments about the prices:

1. Make a statement by not commenting on the thread and/or it's price. If you think it is overpriced - do not engage and hope the buyer will get smarter and lower the price after realizing nobody responses.

2. If you truly are interested in a watch, try to find a member that you trust and know exceeds your knowledge by far. Approach that person via PM and you will be surprised how helpful and nice the crazy-nerd-members are. Do not be shy to admit what you don't know!

Enjoy your time here and happy watch hunting!

P.S. Going your own franken route can be exhausting but also a story worth telling. You should try!

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Originally Posted by aamajzoub

Finally, regarding this last paragraph, I tend to completely disagree with you. The price is not always relative with the quality/resemblance and the more gen parts is not always the better. Some modders/members are just better than others.

I will give two examples for this;

The 1.5K franken that I was seriously interested in had numerous gen parts, but the actual base watch that was used was way off the gen. I was paying 1.5k for a 4.5k watch that only looked good on the front view and is completely off (thickness/proportions/curves) from all other sides. This is obviously a bad franken to me.
While on the other hand, I was interested in a 500euro 1680 that had only a gen crystal. However, the mid case shape/details of the bezel/dial/insert/hands were insanely similar to the gen. That was a very good deal to me. And in that specific case I was the first to pm the seller, yet gone with another member. I was really frustrated about this specific watch..

Also, please note that the latter had a swiss eta while the former was going on an Asian.

But regardless of all this, my original post was NOT about the frankens price and the resemblance of the gen. It was only tackling the misleading useless comments happening in almost all threads. Everyone has the right to post his own comments, but for me I stopped reading those, or at least taking them into consideration when buying an expensive rep.

And you can’t really know which member has enough experience to follow his comments. As I said my first intention was to describe the experience of a new member buying a rep watch (mainly from M2Ms). It does not make any sense for anyone who's looking only to buy a good rep, to spend few months researching/reading/posting in able to do so.

Anw sorry again for the long post, I don’t mean to disrespect anything/anyone here.

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Without going into another long post, I just want to comment on this last section. It's clear that you may have misunderstood the underlying ideas I was trying to make earlier (just was explaining the reality of the hobby, and not trying to "prove you wrong"). Unfortunately, you are right in that new members don't necessarily equal bad people to deal with, but are treated with caution just because they are new. It's not just here. I've had the same issue on other boards I participate in too. For every member like you, I'm sure the senior members could show you hundreds of new members that just want to join, buy a rep quickly, and disappear. Is it unfair? That could be debated forever.

I will ask a question though. How do you know you were the first to PM? Did the seller tell you you were first, but they decided to sell to someone else, or were you just the first to say "PM'd" in the sales thread? Often times sellers post their watches to several boards at the same time. If the seller didn't come out and tell you, it's possible you weren't really first. Obviously, it's also possible the seller just didn't want to sell to you.

The one good thing that came out of this is hopefully the watch you did want was described well enough that you can find another one. Not only can you continue to watch the M2M sales board, but you can also post WTB requests on all the rep boards to see if someone else has one. As I said earlier, it's great that you are doing research. A lot of people don't do that when looking to build frankens and it gets them in trouble because they buy the wrong thing, or can't tell when a seller has added some "fluff" to their descriptions.

I will close with you are going to have to get over the whole "everyone should take a loss" mentality when it comes to franken builds. Buying an off the shelf rep (assuming it's still available retail), wearing it for a few months and listing it for the same price as you bought it probably won't get you a quick sale. Listing a franken with a bunch of parts that are incredibly difficult (if not impossible) to find is a completely different animal. For example, in your $891 'mythical' listing, the seller might actually be pricing well if they bought parts 2 years ago when they were much cheaper. I have a DateJust franken that could not be duplicated now for $250-$300 more than I have invested. The case, dial, bezel and movement prices have gone up substantially since I bought them. If I priced it at just what I have into it, someone would still be getting a great deal, and I could probably part it out for more than selling the watch as a whole. I'm not saying every franken is that way, but you can't just paint them all with one brush.

"Also, my first paragraph was stating the difficulties for new members to buy rep watches."

There is no difficulty at all. Member arrives, looks for or gets pointed to the TD list. Chooses a TD. Chooses a watch. Pays the watch. Gets the watch. Walks away.
Exactly like that - it´s a fast, easy and clean procedure, exactly like going into a watch-shop, choosing a model and walking away.

The thing is newcomers later start with: Oh, but I bought version 2 and didn´t know there was a better version 5.1; I bought from maker A.) but the one I wanted is from maker B.) and to avoid this You have to read beforehand, just like with everything else, a photo-camera or a laptop for instance.

"Not every member can spend time reading/posting just to be able to buy a watch here."

Yes, that is exactly what he should do, if he wants to buy the best model of...., the finest movement with...., the most detailed...., it´s history, what versions there are....
for instance Your signature, You can just go and order a TC 16610 V6 and that´s it, 2 or 3 months later You have it and You have a fine watch at a fair price.

When I have time and I´m in the mood, I´m happy to help out any fellow member with information if it´s available to me. This may be a different situation when just selling a watch with a loss, while having a normal life, other things and a job to do. With longstanding members You answer a few questions, get the payment, send the watch.

You have not dealt with noobs and fail to see that a majority of Noobs, in total insecurity, seek free consulting from longer standing members about everything, without doing any own research. It´s a 100 posts bombardment like: is this the best model available? is the bracelet resizable? can You resize the bracelet for me? would You please open the caseback and take a shot so that other members can confirm it really is an Asian ETA; which dealer is it from? can You send me the link of the dealer? I looked on the dealers site and it is $220 cheaper - why? I wanted to pay with WU, but now I want to pay with Paypal; Can You pack it? Would You please unpack it and take another shot of the caseback? What are the flaws? What are the flaws compared to....? Is it exactly like gen? Why is it not like gen? It´s too expensive if it´s not like gen; how do You set the time? Do You wind it? Can You tell me how to reset the Chronograph? Is the movement reliable? Why did You put a Clarks crystal in? I read the Sternkreuz is better; do You think a gen crystal would fit? Why can´t You tell me if it does fit? Do You know who could tell me if it fits? Is it waterproof? Do You have proof it is waterproof?
I e-mailed You one hour ago and You did not answer ........
I sent You 9 e-mails and You do not respond (in the last 90 minutes)
I don´t want it anymore, sell it to somebody else, Bye

and that´s why it is not a very good idea to guide somebody through the first purchase when You are a seller, unless You have the time and patience for it or didn´t really want to sell it in the first place. We are just simple, easy, good-natured and helpful watch-enthusiasts who want to get on with their hobby, just leave that first-timer hassle to the TD´s, they rationally just answer in a single phrase when the questions get too many: go buy a gen!

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Many members do not appreciate negative posts in their sales thread. Even if they are objective and polite they are often misinterpreted and seen as thread-crapping.
I would also love to see more lively sales threads but it is very difficult to draw the line and the general sense has been to mostly only go this road in case of false advertising or possible scams.

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Yea I'm sure you're right about this, no one will ever accept a negative comment that will affect his sale. Maybe a pm to the OP advising him to change something (wrong info, overpricing, better description..) would be the alternative.

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2. If you truly are interested in a watch, try to find a member that you trust and know exceeds your knowledge by far. Approach that person via PM and you will be surprised how helpful and nice the crazy-nerd-members are. Do not be shy to admit what you don't know!

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I actually did that, some were really helpful and you can see in my original post that I mentioned this as a pro to the forum. I also PM'ed the modder of the watch asking him about this exact build and if he recommends buying it. I understand he might be bias, but still a third party opinion could be better than asking the OP about it.

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P.S. Going your own franken route can be exhausting but also a story worth telling. You should try!

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I am really considering this, I have been tempted to do this since I joined here. My only problem is the actual assembly of the parts (not sure how hard it is - been reading about this lately). There isn't any near watch smith who can help with this and if there is it would be expensive here. I do prefer if I'm getting my own franken done to do the assembly myself, I don't wana source the parts and send them to a watch-smith in a different continent (too much time, higher cost/risk with all the shipping/insurance, and it kills the fun a bit). I will be researching about the subject more, but also I don't want my first project to be a 1.5-2k project (Most prob I'll mess things up in the beginning - and I don't have that much free time to practice on a separate watch).

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I will ask a question though. How do you know you were the first to PM? Did the seller tell you you were first, but they decided to sell to someone else, or were you just the first to say "PM'd" in the sales thread? Often times sellers post their watches to several boards at the same time. If the seller didn't come out and tell you, it's possible you weren't really first. Obviously, it's also possible the seller just didn't want to sell to you.

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Actually, it's a bit of a funny story. Few weeks ago, I was on tapatalk and I saw this post of a vintage rolex the exact moment that was posted. The watch was really nice, very gen-like (IMO), great condition, but I couldn't see the price. So I directly turned on my computer and checked the thread, although I expected a higher price, it was really a catch to have. Exactly what I am looking for, in a very competitive price. I PM'ed the OP maybe 5 minutes after he posted it. I did not post anything (didn't wana draw attention to the thread haha). He didn't reply at first although he was online, I somehow knew he 's waiting for other members, knowing that he had a very good piece to sell. The positive comments were flowing in the thread. Anw in the next 30 minutes I PM'ed him 2-3 times. After maybe 1 hour, a more present member posted that he will take it. So the OP responded to that post, after also a while, telling him to send a pm if he's really interested and he replied to me telling me there is one buyer before you. I knew it was not true but I now understand this issue. I then PM'ed the OP 3-4 times, telling him that I really want this watch and I will pay in any kind of payment (I REALLY wanted the watch). So after a while he posted that the watch was sold to that specific buyer. So I am pretty sure, that this was the case.

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The one good thing that came out of this is hopefully the watch you did want was described well enough that you can find another one. Not only can you continue to watch the M2M sales board, but you can also post WTB requests on all the rep boards to see if someone else has one. As I said earlier, it's great that you are doing research. A lot of people don't do that when looking to build frankens and it gets them in trouble because they buy the wrong thing, or can't tell when a seller has added some "fluff" to their descriptions.

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Yea well you're right about that. I am gradually building experience about what I exactly want so I can act fast when I see a corresponding thread. I did try the WTB section but it's not really very helpful, I doubt many members check there. When it's out of the "What's New?", It's out of the vision..

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There is no difficulty at all. Member arrives, looks for or gets pointed to the TD list. Chooses a TD. Chooses a watch. Pays the watch. Gets the watch. Walks away.
Exactly like that - it´s a fast, easy and clean procedure, exactly like going into a watch-shop, choosing a model and walking away.

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I am clearly talking about the difficulty of new members buying from M2Ms and NOT from TDs! Obviously it is a simple process to buy directly from TDs.

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The thing is newcomers later start with: Oh, but I bought version 2 and didn´t know there was a better version 5.1; I bought from maker A.) but the one I wanted is from maker B.) and to avoid this You have to read beforehand, just like with everything else, a photo-camera or a laptop for instance.

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If you read my post carefully, you will notice that I did say the same thing about this issue. Personally I'm sure I did more research than anyone else before the purchase of a first rep, I'm even tracing things on auto-cad and comparing to the gen (taking into consideration the exact model - I know there's a lot of variations and different series), that's why maybe I'm finding it more difficult.

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"Not every member can spend time reading/posting just to be able to buy a watch here."

Yes, that is exactly what he should do, if he wants to buy the best model of...., the finest movement with...., the most detailed...., it´s history, what versions there are....

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Again, please read carefully the whole post if you want to criticize. I was NOT talking about reading/posting from a research point of view. I was just saying that because sellers from M2Ms prefer someone with a high post count, probably a VIP, and preferably with a feedback score, people need to spend some good time, maybe months to build their profile to be eligible for buying in M2Ms (especially good deals with high demands) regardless whether you are a watch veteran or a noob.

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for instance Your signature, You can just go and order a TC 16610 V6 and that´s it, 2 or 3 months later You have it and You have a fine watch at a fair price.

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Well thanks, I did not know I could do that. I did email TC maybe the first day on the forum. From reading very few posts, I somehow got the impression that TC is offering one of the best finished 16610 rep.
However, I preferred to get a franken and waited to see if I can do that. I had a flexible budget, did not want to wait 2 months to get my watch, and I really hate the curved cadell insert (but now it's hopefully changed to the new insert). But now after almost a month, I'm getting tired of waiting and wasting some deals, the TC insert might be already changed so I think I will reconsider ordering a TC V6

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You have not dealt with noobs and fail to see that a majority of Noobs, in total insecurity, seek free consulting from longer standing members about everything, without doing any own research. It´s a 100 posts bombardment like: is this the best model available? is the bracelet resizable? can You resize the bracelet for me? would You please open the caseback and take a shot so that other members can confirm it really is an Asian ETA; which dealer is it from? can You send me the link of the dealer? I looked on the dealers site and it is $220 cheaper - why? I wanted to pay with WU, but now I want to pay with Paypal; Can You pack it? Would You please unpack it and take another shot of the caseback? What are the flaws? What are the flaws compared to....? Is it exactly like gen? Why is it not like gen? It´s too expensive if it´s not like gen; how do You set the time? Do You wind it? Can You tell me how to reset the Chronograph? Is the movement reliable? Why did You put a Clarks crystal in? I read the Sternkreuz is better; do You think a gen crystal would fit? Why can´t You tell me if it does fit? Do You know who could tell me if it fits? Is it waterproof? Do You have proof it is waterproof?
I e-mailed You one hour ago and You did not answer ........
I sent You 9 e-mails and You do not respond (in the last 90 minutes)
I don´t want it anymore, sell it to somebody else, Bye

and that´s why it is not a very good idea to guide somebody through the first purchase when You are a seller, unless You have the time and patience for it or didn´t really want to sell it in the first place. We are just simple, easy, good-natured and helpful watch-enthusiasts who want to get on with their hobby, just leave that first-timer hassle to the TD´s, they rationally just answer in a single phrase when the questions get too many: go buy a gen!

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I don't know what are you going through or who you are dealing with. Personally, I do my part of research and I'm more or less straight forward when I PM someone. If some members are giving you hard time or this is becoming too stressful, then this is your problem, I can't help you with that. I am still trying to understand the relevance of your post. You took some phrases from my post and replied based on your interpretation while I was tackling completely different issues.

The cons; (Again, I don’t mean to offense anyone here)

" - Buying a rep;
I found it extremely difficult for a new member to buy on these forums (mostly from m2ms). When I first registered, I did not care much about posting. All I wanted to do is find a good deal, buy it (hopefully as a pre-gen phase), and move on. I did find many interesting/good deals and I need to add that in few cases, I was the first one to contact the seller. I was all ready to proceed with the payment, but it always ended with the seller going with another “more present” buyer. I did not have much problem with any kind of payment, at least, if the seller has some good feedback. All the sellers preferred a VIP member with more posts. "
"I don't know what are you going through or who you are dealing with. Personally, I do my part of research and I'm more or less straight forward when I PM someone. If some members are giving you hard time or this is becoming too stressful, then this is your problem, I can't help you with that. I am still trying to understand the relevance of your post. You took some phrases from my post and replied based on your interpretation while I was tackling completely different issues. "

Hi, You have some strong points of view about a vast diversity of issues and You´ve done a lot of reading, for sure. Luckily I don´t have any issues either, because I like to do a lot of reading as well and only do choose what I want to buy and maintain anyway. As it was fun to reply I just pointed out some issues on why it may be so difficult for a noob to be successful right from the start on m2m. This was a direct answer to several situations You pointed out in the first place. After the first purchase from a TD any noob get´s a lot of experience and changes his attitude, it´s just part of it all, without this experience the benefits and good parts of m2m including the pricing cannot be judged and evaluated well enough.

As I already pointed out it was interesting and refreshing to read about Your first impressions, as this kind of information gets lost over time when You´re around long enough.

Man my finger is tired from scrolling all this info !!

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Originally Posted by Seawolf49

Man my finger is tired from scrolling all this info !!

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Hahaha, same here!

HAPPY ENDING TO THE LONG THREAD: I brushed up my profile a bit (pic, signature, information..), raised my post count, and finally, succeeded in buying a TC V6 with the new insert from M2M.. Same price as new but didn't want the 2 months wait..
The seller was a bit skeptical to sell for a relatively new member with no feedback rate/history, but the transaction went very smoothly nevertheless..
Anw I'm very happy with the watch, few comments here and there but overall it's worth the money imo... It's really encouraging me to go for more reps or a gen 16610..