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Precisely. The opposite of nothing, even.Quote:
Originally Posted by Posh
May I quote...
"The spiritual being knows that we are all connected, and he is able to see the fullness of God in each person with whom he makes contact. This sense of connection eliminates much of the inner conflict that the non-spiritual being experiences as he constantly judges others, categorizes them according to physical appearances and behaviors, and then proceeds to find ways to either ignore or take advantage of them for his own benefit."
As one of my favorite author's puts it.
http://www.innerself.com/Spiritualit..._spiritual.htm
Also, remember his other quote I love...
"We are not human beings having a spiritual experience, we are spiritual beings having a human experience."
:love:
Now go GIVE IT UP people...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rizing Sun
I get this line of thinking's appeal, really. And I definitely understand the psychological attraction that some people have to the whole "New Earth"/Eckhart Tolle-like doctrine, and it's sociological impact stemming from the ideas. But it's basis is not in traditional Judaic/Christian tenets so much as it stems from what you "feel," an amalgmation and appropriation of many religions almost. How do you, personally, reconcile that with what the Torah or Bible teaches about our connection with G-d and each other?
I don't believe in a spiritual being whatsoever, but instead feel lucky to have "won the lottery of life." That is the way that I feel connected to my fellow human beings. The world is small today thanks to technology. What this means is that the entire world is a single community. . .
The reason we've survived as a species is because we've matured enough to recognize those in need and help our fellow humans. This is why "survival of the fittest" no longer applies. Those of us who are more fit than others have a RESPONSIBILITY to help others. Now. . .like others have already said in this thread. . .that does NOT have to be by joining Habitat or donating substantial amounts to the Red Cross. Simple everyday things are what's most needed.
just my $0.02
This could be a great topic for another thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by Posh
I think the spiritual matters that Tolle, Dyer and the likes (Chopra), transcend any traditional religious beliefs and focuses on the common spiritual law that governs all. Whatever or whoever you would like to call "it". Maybe it sounds very "New Age-y" and a little "just smile and it'll all be OK..."
It's stimulating reading.
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Originally Posted by mingus2112
Now, you've piqued my curiousity! Under your belief system, why do I or anyone else in a better social or financial position have a "RESPONSIBILITY," as you say, to help anybody in disadvantaged position?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rizing Sun
What are these common spiritual laws that governs us all? I guess it's kind of tied into the question above. I'm genuinely interested in understanding your point of view and how it relates to giving or NOT giving of anything of yourself.
Well by saying "your belief system," you pointed something out to me. Let me backtrack a little first and apologize. Sometimes, when in a discussion, we tend to say things we don't necessarily mean to make a point. I just did that. What I should have said is: "I feel like I have a responsibility to. . ."Quote:
Originally Posted by Posh
As to why I feel that way. . .think of the world as one big corporation. Sure, not everyone fills his/her weight, but nobody likes those guys. I share my office with a guy who makes $80,000 and does nothing but listen to music and chat online. Maybe a corporation is a bad example, but i'm having trouble putting it into words. In that example, though, perhaps that person can skate by just fine now. . .but what happens when the company fails not only because of his lack of work, but because others in the company couldn't keep up with their work? Then he's out of a job and the company fails. I'm not saying that society will fail if you don't help people. . .but maybe you can extrapolate what i'm trying to say from that.
Problem is the guy you're talking about who does nothing will probably prosper and the hard working folks will not. It's an unfair world and effort never brings its fair share of rewards. As a wild example, there was a case in the UK where a rapist in jail won millions on the national lottery. Makes one wonder about God's purpose.... His victim was trying to get reparation now he could afford it but I'm not sure she succeeded, maybe it's ongoing but I know she had one hell of a legal battle on her hands because of the time that had passed. He prospered, his victim suffered even more.Quote:
Originally Posted by mingus2112
Do we have, or should we feel, a responsibility to our fellow humans? It's a good question but where do you draw the line, unless you become a buddhist where all life is sacred. I guess in the end it's a personal choice. I have to say as I get older the "charity begins at home" tenet holds sway. I would rather give to a homeless person living on the street in London than to someone in Africa, India, or wherever. Don't know why this should be, but it is the way I feel.
Now I was critical of Posh earlier on for "boasting" about her charitable exploits, but what I was forgetting was the difference between the UK and the US. In the UK we are much more reserved about such things to the extent that someone posting what Posh did would be considered to be "blowing their own trumpet" and I genuinely found it uncomfortable. However, the US way is different and more open, particularly about finance, I should have remembered that.
You're right. It IS an unfair world. I also agree with you 100% about charity beginning at home. It's hard to express this without sounding like you only care about people close to you. For example: My sister works for some religious group out in Arizona where she lives. It's on the college campus that she went to. They work with these college kids and their big "thing" a few times a year is getting on a bus and heading down to Mexico to fix houses for people. Now, i'm not denying that she's doing good. . .she certainly is. . .but the big joke around the dinner table was to picture all of these college kids in DOWNTOWN PHOENIX getting on a bus to Mexico. . .while passing up all the homeless people. . .walking around them. . .pretending they don't exist.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brightlight
The example of my sister brings up another point. Not sure how on topic it is. . .so i'll keep it short. I think Posh's original post was/is important and we should get back to that. . .
So on that last example of my sister's "mission trip," they head down to Mexico and happily fix houses. . .talk to the people about life. . .maybe throw a few God this and God that's in there. . .but they're pretty respectful (from what she tells me). So that's fine. On the other hand, when they DO provide help to the needy in the community, it's always something of a "bring them to church" type of deal. You come to bible study, and you get a free meal.
That's what I do NOT consider charity. They're using charity to bait people into something.
So back to Posh's post. . .I think those organizations that she mentioned (Habitat, anyway) are VERY great things to get involved in. As far as WHAT to get involved in, here's my view:
Donations only: If you don't have the time to donate and just want to give money, the Salvation Army is the way to go. I forget the actual figure, but the Red Cross's operating costs are a LOT higher. More of your money will end up doing good for someone with the Salvation Army.
Time: If you want to get involved, the Red Cross or Habitat for humanity are the way to go. Both organizations make great use of their volunteers and you can actually get out there and do good for some people.
Finally, I think whether you would like to admit it or not, "feeling good about it" is an important part of being "charitable."
-James
In America, it's "Survival of the Unfittest"
http://shanghaiist.com/attachments/s.../mcdonalds.jpg
EW. . .i hate being part of the mcdonalds generation. the worst part is that i sometimes crave it. . .and always ALWAYS feel sick within 10 minutes of eating there. . .WITHOUT FAIL.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kollektor
I stay clear of fast food when at all possible. Nasty.
yes
Um, ew. I like McDonald's, I won't lie. Sometimes the fries call out to you. But I do it once a month, not once a week like Paris and Nicole there. The true travesty is this: someone out there thinks this is attractive and that's the world I DO NOT want to live in.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kollektor
Yeah, I don't believe listening to a sermon should be the prerequisite for anything either. If people want to know about what you believe, that's fine. But I find religion, in mixed company, is not best discussed over a meal.:)Quote:
Originally Posted by mingus2112
Honestly, feeling good about making a difference is a side effect of helping another person in need and it's very natural.
It is a good question. What's your answer? I think life is special and we do have a divine edict to help our fellow human. It doesn't seem you're quite convinced either way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brightlight
Give to whoever you want, Blight. Give as much as you want. Give wherever you want. Give whatever you want. Tell whoever you want. The point is to just give a little.
See, I don't have that much of a problem with a discussion "over a meal" or what have you. It may not be what I believe but, at least in my sister's case, i'm very interested to hear what she has to say. I think that's a lot different than being forced to listen to a sermon (in return for a hot meal or otherwise).Quote:
Originally Posted by Posh
Thinking about what BrightLight said. . .I think maybe we should feel a responsibility. . .but we don't always. Along those same lines, do the reasons for those feelings matter? Taking a generic religious point of view you could have two very different rationals for acting charitable. Someone who was brought up in a religiously moderate and loving family might feel a responsibility because he/she was brought up to believe that it's the right thing to do. Another extreme point of view of the person who was brought up in a very strict, fundamental religious household and who feels like he/she needs to act charitably to avoid burning in hell. But those are topics for another time! ;)
I think the main theme here is this: Maybe you want to be charitable, maybe you don't. If you don't, that's your choice. If you do, you should know that there are plenty of options for you to help your fellow human beings. You don't have to quit your job and join the peace corps. You could volunteer once a month at a soup kitchen or even doing something small by making sure you compliment at least one person every day. Something that small can make a huge impact.
-J
+1Quote:
Originally Posted by Pugwash
Always remember the kindness and things given to you. It is not a kindness if you remind the person that has received or is receiving that your are the one giving. Do good for goodness sake not for any reward or positive feedback.
It's a question I don't know the answer to, and don't mind admitting it. And here is why. If life is special, is human life more than animal life? Or less in the case of the medical/religious viewpoint. We would put an animal "out of its misery" whereas a human in similar state who can and does actually ask to be put out of his misery is denied this final service on the grounds that human life is special, god given, whatever your flavour of religion states, for make no mistake it is the sway of religion that ultimately denies the terminally sick person his only relief. You can never "save life", all you can do is postpone death. Humanists generally have no such bias. As the play says "Whose life is it anyway?".Quote:
Originally Posted by Posh
Anyhow I'm relieved I have your permission to excercise my free will :D
The point? I'm less sure about that. Giving per se is not the point, as someone said much earlier in this thread the point is making a difference. One hell of a lot of charities actually do not accomplish this.
:soap:
i believe in Karma what goes around comes around.. My choice of religion is Wiccan.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yggdrasil
"+1" meaning you're atheist and so you do charitable things for sake of doing them without expecting an afterlife? I think it's always interesting how people automatically equate the reason someone who is religious and does something charitable is trying to get a second life. I don't think it's always about that for many people, especially in the world we live in now. I'm not Orthodox but I do hold fast in Maimonides' 13 Principals of faith, especially that G-d knows your intentions and thoughts and the reason behind why you do anything:
Who fashioned the hearts of them all, Who comprehends all their actions
-- Pslam 33:15
Atheism is something that is proven to be more prevalent the more educated someone is or thinks they are. I find the exact opposite to be true for me. The more I learn, the more I believe that there is something supremely divine behind it all and the more in awe of G-d I become. Women are actually less like to be atheist than men, Ygg. I'm curious, when did you come to this thought process.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brightlight
Free will and knowledge, the cornerstones of Judaic faith. Rock out with your clock out, Brightlight!:D
Putting human life into the same category as animal life is saying that we are no better than the animals over which we were given dominion. Are we no better than an animal, in your estimation?
And as for killing one's self, that's a personal choice. One that anyone who wants to should be allowed to exercise. What you CANNOT do is ask someone else, who can't or doesn't want to, to do it for you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris V.
I'll get you, my pretty! And your little watch, too!
:laugh:
Hrm...Quote:
Originally Posted by Posh
Well, humans are animals, scientifically speaking here. :)
And, christianity faith believes that we were given dominion over animals, but do other faiths across the world all specifically state that?
They very well might, but I personally could not say one way or the other. is it implied, or custom, or specifically stated?
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Originally Posted by roflwaffle
It's stated. And it's in the three main world religions, but not specifically all.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attitud..._ancient_worldQuote:
Originally Posted by Posh
Ok, nevermind, I've really stopped caring at this point.. seems a frivolous argument.
um.. what was the topic of this thread again?
Quote:
"+1" meaning you're atheist and so you do charitable things for sake of doing them without expecting an afterlife?
I have not heard of women being in the minority amongst atheists. My thought process is of no concern to the topic at hand. Since you asked, If I would have to characterize myself as something, I suppose I would be a Logical Positivist. Please do not take my agreeing with someone as being of the same school of thought.Quote:
Women are actually less like to be atheist than men, Ygg. I'm curious, when did you come to this thought process.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Posh
...Quote:
Originally Posted by Posh
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yggdrasil
I wasn't saying you were, Yggdrasil. But the "+1" kinda looked like you were saying you were. That's why I asked you the question. I got the fact that women are less likely to be atheist in my National Mental Health Association books, Religioustolerance.org and Richarddawkins.net. It's actually a HIGHLY discussed (and highly charged from what I saw in some of my classes) subject that brings up all kinds of ideas like oppression, levels of intelligence, history, etc.
The first things you learn about in sociology and psychology courses is people's thinking and position on basic ideas that govern, or don't govern, people's day-to-day lives. It's what drew me to the whole subject to begin with. That's why I was curious as to how you came to your current conclusions. I personally don't know ANY female atheists but know more male atheists than I'd like to admit.
What encompasses Logical Positivism?
Logical Positivism? Bah. Back to Mickey Ds. Absolutely love it. Used to "dine" there far more often than I'll admit. Yes, I felt like Road Kill afterwards. This tradition carried on until I saw "Supersize Me." No more Unhappy Meals.
Atheists just have limited imagination... or resources, or suffer from cognitive dissonance. Religionists are often partisan by birth and consequently brainwashed, and agnostics are sooo clever.
I personally view it rather pragmatically..I can best be described it as a knowledge construct, a philosophy of observation and rational/logic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Posh
super size me?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kollektor
hah, i saw another documentary (bit of a mockumentary), about a guy proving that you can loose weight only eating macdonalds,
the guy just didnt wallow in his own self pity for 30 days..
and yea, he did excercise a bit each day...
not saying mc d is good (its not), just that it was an amusing counterpart to the movie mentioned.
both movies were a bit over the top
mc ds... ew.. thats like... 'im on a trip, and i want to keep driving' food... and not really any other acceptable times for that.
Somebody's been reading Plato ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Pugwash
Say. . .perhaps the atheism/agnosticism/religion discussion can find its own thread? I know I was probably one of the guilty parties for leading down this road. I think there's a lot that can be discussed here (as long as nobody's taking pot shots at one another's beliefs. . .which hasn't happened yet here), but I think it deserves its own thread.
-J
Unfortunately such a thread gets nowhere and ultimately devolves into hurt feelings and inevitable potshots. Religion is a matter of belief and therefore an attack on religion is a personal attack. Being a card carrying atheist I love arguing about religion, but you can only really do that with other atheists without hurt feelings coming to the fore! Though I did have a serious of lovely arguments, and learned a lot about Islam, with a Moslem friend......Quote:
Originally Posted by mingus2112
Interesting post Posh. I have not read any of it till now.
I believe many people give to say look how good I am. It still does good for the receivers others though. I think charity is great and very necessary. Many organizations would not stay alive without it.
As far charity paying off in heaven I am not so sure. I think the more we do to further expand the kingdom of God will be more of a factor of treasure in heaven.
I think some men steer towards atheism because we don't want anyone or anything to have dominion over our lives or to admit that we are created beings. We want to be self made chest thumping Alpha males who have complete control over everything in our little world. Many men think to believe in God is feminine, pansy or somehow a crutch to use in our lives. This of course, is not my veiwpoint just some of my experiences in counseling Christian men over the years.
How is that for dropping the faith portion of this discussion. :D
Sorry
Quote:
Originally Posted by Posh
It would be an interesting thread. I think most people here, except for me, are adult enough to handle that conversation in an adult fashion. After a few drinks, maybe not so much. :D Being card carrying atheist is fine. It seems to me there are more on the board than at first glance too. You would probably be in the majority.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brightlight
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackjo
Thanks, Jack. Uh, what you base your thoughts about men's feelings about belief in a god, any god, is what I often expounded upon in class and studies of statistical data on religion, particularly in this country. I agree those feelings are what some men experience in regards to faith.
Oddly enough, I think it takes courageous man to believe in something he cannot quantify, especially in this world of wonders we live in now. It's MUCH easier now to deny existence of G-d than say in the Sparta of antiquity. That's interesting and telling.
I think a thread on atheism/religion would be a great idea, as long as people can keep their cool. That isn't always easy to do, usually the mudslinging starts pretty quickly.
I agree with Jackjo's comments that men are less likely than women to be believers in a God. Like Jackjo, I think, from personal experience, one of the primary barriers to belief in God is pride and control. Men do not want to give up the idea that they are completely independent, self-made men, nor do they want to lose the ability to do whatever, whenever. This is true for both sexes, but men especially.
I am a Christian and have been for about 8 years. I've spent most of my life as an Atheist. My parents still are, and they think I am nuts. I wasn't brainwashed, encouraged, or influenced toward Christianity in any way. Matter of fact, I said most of the same things Atheists say about God.
As far as charity goes - I keep my work and amount of donations to myself. I don't give or work out of guilt, or the desire to store up treasures in Heaven, I do things because I feel God's love in my life every day. I know I don't deserve that love. I want other people, believers or not, to feel loved, even if/when they don't deserve it. I don't really feel good about myself when I am done giving or working for a charity. I don't really feel much difference in myself at all, just still loved, thankful, and humbled.
I do believe that you can store up "treasures" in Heaven, but I have no idea what that means. Nor do I care. My treasure will be an eternity in Heaven with my Creator. As the good book says, "In Him you are complete!"
I think it would be much easier for me to just let go and say that god's behind everything, has my back and has control of everything. It's both scary and comforting to believe that my decisions are my own and that I have a lot to do with my own well being. Has nothing to do with being macho. Be careful how you phrase such things.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackjo
I agree with you, Posh, that we could probably get into a good discussion on the religion thing. The problem is, as someone mentioned, when feelings are hurt. That's when pot shots are taken, flame wars start, etc. I'm actually QUITE impressed that hasn't happened yet! Maybe it's because repgeek is such a respectful community.. .or maybe it's because we're just flirting with the topic. Either way, i'm hesitant.
Reading through the off-topic forum is a hoot. One time i'll read someones post and think he/she is a complete idiot. . .and then 2 hours later i read a completely intelligent and thought provoking post by the same person. It just goes to show that we have a pretty diverse group around here, and that we're not afraid to speak WHATEVER's on our mind. We all have different beliefs. . .and that's cool.
So here's my controversial statement for the day: I don't feel the need to respect ANYBODY's beliefs at face value just it's because it's what they believe. I DO, however, feel the tremendous need to respect EVERYONE's feelings. . .which is what keeps me from going down "that road." I would call that "showing respect" for the person. I think that's important in ANY community (online or otherwise!) :)
-J
We are all adult enough here to have a debate/discussion without flaming or hurting each other feelings. I am glad to be a part of a community with many veiwpoints that we can learn and experience from.
Beautifully said AT.Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinTech
Countdown to lockdown 10...9...8... LOL
As Karl Marx said -
Religion is, indeed, the self-consciousness and self-esteem of man who has either not yet won through to himself, or has already lost himself again. But man is no abstract being squatting outside the world. Man is the world of man—state, society. This state and this society produce religion, which is an inverted consciousness of the world, because they are an inverted world. Religion is the general theory of this world, its encyclopedic compendium, its logic in popular form, its spiritual point d'honneur, its enthusiasm, its moral sanction, its solemn complement, and its universal basis of consolation and justification. It is the fantastic realization of the human essence since the human essence has not acquired any true reality. The struggle against religion is, therefore, indirectly the struggle against that world whose spiritual aroma is religion. Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness. To call on them to give up their illusions about their condition is to call on them to give up a condition that requires illusions. The criticism of religion is, therefore, in embryo, the criticism of that vale of tears of which religion is the halo.
Couldn't have put it any beter myself!