Time Is On My Side: Passionné D’exception . . . (A Selection of Watches)

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Originally Posted by Sylar

The only Pams that I consider are horologically important are the double barrel tourbys that they have delivered in the last year.

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That would interesting but they didn't invent the double-barrel tourbillon. But that feature is something interesting nonetheless. And while we're on the subject of tourbillons, the Panerai 276 has the UNMITIGATED GALL to be $98,000 and you can't even SEE the tourbillon without TAKING THE WATCH OFF?! Who IS this company's creative director?

Seeing the same ones on here everyday doesn't help matters.

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Originally Posted by jeff g

Wow. I am speechless.
What a thread...what a post.

I must add however, that my favorite watch in fact is a Patek rep.
The MBK Nautilus is worthy of comparison to the gen 3700/3800
jumbo, albeit, not even close to 1.1 to the gen. Personally I would never spend 25,000 for the current 5711, but I am such a fan of this Patek model, that wearing the rep is worth it for me.

Your eloquence is much appreciated.

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Thank you, John, for your kind words and enjoying the posting. I'm sorry some of the pictures are missing; I am fixing that now.

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Originally Posted by Saltine

they look nothing alike. unless you focus on the 12 and the 6. The similarities are:
case
hands
12&6
seconds at 9
GMT

similarities on the rolex:
everything but the stones,gel on the bezel and leopard print

what is horologically important about leopard print?

few words for you: radiomir, luminor, tourbillon, screwless cases, screwless bracelets, screw down winding crown, crown guards, crown locking lever, eight-day movement, outsize... ohh yea FIRST UNDERWATER WATCHES

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I didn't say they looked alike. I said they looked "similar." You didn't name anything that they did FIRST. They haven't done anything FIRST. They don't even have a research and development department in the same sense as even their stablemates Piaget, Jaeger-Le Coultre or even A. Lange. They weren't even the first to have big watches!

Panerai didn't make the first "underwater" watch or even the first water-resistant watch. Hans Wilsdorf of Rolex in 1927 gave us the Oyster, the first water resistant watch. The first diver's watch, the first underwater watch period, was the Omega Marine which was tested during the late 1920s and introduced in 1932.

There's nothing horologically important about leopard print; it's simply a DESIGN element. I didn't include Rolex in my list but I could have. I didn't add them because people want to know about other companies with histories besides them, even though I respect Rolex highly. Rolex has proven their relevance to world of time keeping, even introducing the wonderful Yachtmaster II with a great countdown function. I'm very simple to please; you only have to do ONE thing that's significant to the advancement of horology. Just one. Or, if not that, DESIGN something of interest. I think that's MORE than reasonable, don't you?

Water resistance is not a underwater watch. Like you said, the first "divers" watch was made by Omega, but they only thing diver about it was the fact that it had a case that protected it from extreme pressure and temperature. It actually had to be removed from the case to be wound.

The first true underwater watch was made by Panerai in 1936. They not only made their cases water proof (note proof, not resistant), but the over sized their dials, over sized their numbers and used their luminating compound to make the watch visible in murky and dark waters.

And I had given you more then one thing Panerai has done.

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Originally Posted by Brobert

A very impressive post Posh! It's obvious from the detailed info that you took a great deal of time to write this and you actually know what you're talking about. Hell, it's tedious work for me to post photo links let alone write up a long post like that. Thanks for the incredible write up and thanks for taking the time to do this. Someone should sticky this.

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Thanks, Bro! You rock, bro! The hardest part about my other posts was the damn pictures, not the written content. This post was killer in that way plus the extra words. I mean, this IS a watch forum first so I would need to keep that in mind. This post is just shy of 10,000 words, more than some of my others posts COMBINED. A least the two McQueens and the suitcase post anyway.

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Originally Posted by dapri

Finally some writing about real watches :) Extraordinary article!!!

Take care

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Thank you, Dapri! This means a lot. Please keep reading and I'll keep writing! In this place and my other publishing endeavor as well! ;) Thanks for the PM; I replied back!

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Originally Posted by Saltine

Water resistance is not a underwater watch. Like you said, the first "divers" watch was made by Omega, but they only thing diver about it was the fact that it had a case that protected it from extreme pressure and temperature. It actually had to be removed from the case to be wound.

The first true underwater watch was made by Panerai in 1936. They not only made their cases water proof (note proof, not resistant), but the over sized their dials, over sized their numbers and used their luminating compound to make the watch visible in murky and dark waters.

And I had given you more then one thing Panerai has done.

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First off, Panerai didn't make the first waterproof watch. Rolex is considered the first. Period. You could take their watches underwater to the SAME depths as Panerai models you keep bringing up. They were the first with a waterproof watch. I am using the term "water-resistance" because that's the term favored by watch historians. Omega made the first diver's watch. Panerai was merely doing as the Italian Navy wanted in the only way they knew how because of patents held by other watch companies. The Italians were always late to the table on a lot of things historically! :lol:

And all those things you mentioned about them? Those aren't technological firsts. THEY ARE ANTI-COUNTERFEIT MEASURES. Why? Because they are SO easy to counterfeit due to the very things that make them popular to modders around here. People split hairs around here because they are trying to pass these bad boys off as real. The real fact of the matter? Some modded Panerais around here, if placed in with genuines, couldn't be distinguished from them. They use movements, cases and bracelets readily available to anyone, especially before 2007. I actually think this is why modders like them. With a Panerai you can fool yourself and others into thinking you have the real watch because for all, intents and purposes, YOU DO! Because there's NOTHING that makes them really special which is why collectors stay away from the brand now like the plague. They just got their fourth in-house movement.

They are not an important company. The are a resurrected old watch company that was purchased and reissued simply because Richemont wanted a pure casual/sport upscale watch brand with higher price points and thusly better margins, because they really didn't have one. They bought it simply as a niche company. They don't expect it to really rival too many others brands in traditional sense. Their CEO, Angelo Bonati, couldn't really even describe their competition ten years ago and couldn't possibly describe it today. He actually went on the record and says his brand is between Rolex and AUDEMARS-PIGUET?! Is he SERIOUS? Where'd he come up with those mileposts? I would say he's on the level with Rolex, and maybe not even them because most of their movements are from Swatch. They seem to be in their own world, which is fine.

I will give you this though: watches are so enormous today because of this brand. Bad eyesight? Good watch.

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Originally Posted by Posh

That would interesting but they didn't invent the double-barrel tourbillon. But that feature is something interesting nonetheless. And while we're on the subject of tourbillons, the Panerai 276 has the UNMITIGATED GALL to be $98,000 and you can't even SEE the tourbillon without TAKING THE WATCH OFF?! Who IS this company's creative director?

Seeing the same ones on here everday doesn't

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Clearly you don't understand the point of a Panerai.

Panerai's are meant to be understated following their historical design without giving merit to the MTV bling bling culture that the other watch makers are so happy to oblige.

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Originally Posted by bestcraigslisterever

Clearly you don't understand the point of a Panerai.

Panerai's are meant to be understated following their historical design without giving merit to the MTV bling bling culture that the other watch makers are so happy to oblige.

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I don't understand "the point" of Panerai? This understatement you're talking about comes from the roots of the watch as military bauble for a fourth string military power in the mid-twentieth century, as any military historian will tell you. You may want to read my entire post and my replies to Saltine to make sure I really don't understand the point of Panerai.

Since I don't understand the point of Panerai, because I seem to be so clearly ensconced in the "MTV bling bling culture," why don't you explain it to me. I'm all ears. :munch:

There's

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Originally Posted by Posh

There's

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i enjoyed the read, thanks for taking the time to put it together.


i also really enjoyed your post that i quoted here because it uses normal size white letters ;)

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Originally Posted by spekoli

i enjoyed the read, thanks for taking the time to put it together.


i also really enjoyed your post that i quoted here because it uses normal size white letters ;)

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Snap! Awesome! I'm glad you liked it. Where was I?

Oh, yes. Back to business as usual!

Good read and I agree with most of your choices and have a few.

i vote this best thread of the year! :D great post Posh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Gottcha Poshy.

Very nice really. Good read.

WOW!

An award winner for sure! Thank you SO much for this review(s).

A couple of the ones you listed I was looking at but never got around to checking out accuracy etc.

You never fail to amaze!

All hail Queen Posh I !!!!!!!!!!

:kneel: :kneel: :kneel:

Brilliant Posh. Very well done!

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Originally Posted by 0002S

Good read and I agree with most of your choices and have a few.

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Thanks, love! "Teh Posh" says: Rock out with your clock out! :D

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Originally Posted by Chris V.

i vote this best thread of the year! :D great post Posh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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The Citi never sleeps and neither does Chris! Thanky uof for commenting and reading!

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Originally Posted by $~mLuMaN83~$

Gottcha Poshy.

Very nice really. Good read.

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I'm glad you came out of seclusion to read this AND comment. Thanks, my little babushka!

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Originally Posted by sfa437

WOW!

An award winner for sure! Thank you SO much for this review(s).

A couple of the ones you listed I was looking at but never got around to checking out accuracy etc.

You never fail to amaze!

All hail Queen Posh I !!!!!!!!!!

:kneel: :kneel: :kneel:

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No need to genuflect. Simple degratory groveling will suffice. ;) Thanks, S.

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Originally Posted by samurai jack

Brilliant Posh. Very well done!

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I hope it provided some info and I'm glad you read it. Thank you, Jack & Samurai (M). :cheesy:

"teh posh" rules! :lol:

Great read. While I'm not much into the "high horology" reps, I have to agree about Breguet (as a brand).

In my eyes, it's the top watch brand in the world, even more legendary and prestigious than Patek... and Transatlantique Type XX is my dream watch... and not even completely "out of reach" for an average guy like me.

Did you know that Breguet started by designing watches for people like Napoleon, Louis XVI (king) and Marie Antoinette, the queen of France? They also invented tourbillon. Very impressive watches, though I'm not personally too fond of all their extra simplistic "dressy" models.

Thanks for this composition, it was entertaining read. This kind of posts keep the community "rolling"! ;)

Posh, You are truly the queen of RepGeek :clap: :clap: :clap: another fabulous post, is there nothing you are not good at? you make the rest of us lady geeks look bad. :D


x Mrs H x

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Originally Posted by Posh

They are not an important company.

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I would have to disagree with you here... Richemont has made an incredible profit increase (18% overall and 37% only the watchbrands) this year, wich was mostly driven by Panerai and IWC.
I wouldn't say Panerai is not an important company.

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Originally Posted by By-Tor

Great read. While I'm not much into the "high horology" reps, I have to agree about Breguet (as a brand).

In my eyes, it's the top watch brand in the world, even more legendary and prestigious than Patek... and Transatlantique Type XX is my dream watch... and not even completely "out of reach" for an average guy like me.

Did you know that Breguet started by designing watches for people like Napoleon, Louis XVI (king) and Marie Antoinette, the queen of France? They also invented tourbillon. Very impressive watches, though I'm not personally too fond of all their extra simplistic "dressy" models.

Thanks for this composition, it was entertaining read. This kind of posts keep the community "rolling"! ;)

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They TT XX is GREAT watch, By. Thanks for liking my post. Means a lot coming from you!

I love tourbillons and that's one of the reasons why I included Breguet and mention tourbillons in the post. They are just tiny little marvels!

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Originally Posted by mrs-h-

Posh, You are truly the queen of RepGeek :clap: :clap: :clap: another fabulous post, is there nothing you are not good at? you make the rest of us lady geeks look bad. :D

x Mrs H x

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You girls all have families and duckilings so you wouldn't have time to become grade-A, Financial Geologist with a concentration in luxury goods and paydirt!

Thanks for enjoying the post!

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Originally Posted by DVS

I would have to disagree with you here... Richemont has made an incredible profit increase (18% overall and 37% only the watchbrands) this year, wich was mostly driven by Panerai and IWC.
I wouldn't say Panerai is not an important company.

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They are important to only Richemont in that respect. So maybe you're right, D. :D

Updated with a bit of corrected info, typographical errors and slight editing! Enjoy!

Woooow, great posting Posh, a lot of work has to be in it, excellent article.

@Posh: This is an *amazing* article, but several of the image links are now broken, since Josh changed his web site address. Could you update your post to use pc88clone.com instead of pc-80108.com? Thanks! :)

EDIT: also, it looks like there are some broken links to trustytime88, instead of tt88time.

Cheers,
Ari

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Originally Posted by onzenuub

Woooow, great posting Posh, a lot of work has to be in it, excellent article.

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Thank you, Nuub! I'm glad you enjoyed it!

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Originally Posted by ari

@Posh: This is an *amazing* article, but several of the image links are now broken, since Josh changed his web site address. Could you update your post to use pc88clone.com instead of pc-80108.com? Thanks! :)

EDIT: also, it looks like there are some broken links to trustytime88, instead of tt88time.

Cheers,
Ari

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Fixed! The links are not fixed but I will do it tomorrow. I'm sorry for the missing pictures; I did this last week when the replica world was not turned on its ear.

I'm glad you enjoyed it; your kind words to let me know how it was really make it worth continuing to write them.

As long as they keep making luxury goods, I'll be there. And as long as they keep making good replicas, I'll be there too!

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Originally Posted by ari

@Posh: This is an *amazing* article, but several of the image links are now broken, since Josh changed his web site address. Could you update your post to use pc88clone.com instead of pc-80108.com? Thanks! :)

EDIT: also, it looks like there are some broken links to trustytime88, instead of tt88time.

Cheers,
Ari

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Now all the links and photos are working, Ari. Thank you again for reading!

Cool post posh....I ACTUALLY enjoyed reading it. If only we could get more posts of this quality! :)

Now I feel I want the Riviera.....

I wonder how if dealer sales will have a minor spike with the brands and models you mentioned in this post???

What an amazingly informative post. Thanks POSH!

Bump for a good thread

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Originally Posted by TommyB

What an amazingly informative post. Thanks POSH!

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Hey, hey, Tommy! That's awesome coming from you. I hope you'll enjoy any future ones I plan to write.

I was wondering when you'd mosey over and give it a read! :D

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Originally Posted by Posh

One of the things shielding Patek Philippe from this type of market mania is that they make most all of their movements and the parts for the movements themselves. There is NO OTHER BRAND that has access to ANY of their movements, making a Patek Philippe a luxury like no other watch available; even the Lemania movements they used prior to 2006 for their chronographs weren't available to any other watch manufacturer due to an ironclad contract they had with Breguet, Lemania's owner. [/SIZE][/FONT]

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Umm?? *MANY* brands use entirely in house movements... why does that make PP special? PP is special for a lot of reasons, but just the fact that they do in house movements does not make them special ;) just sayin.. :)

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Keeping in the mind the specialness and rarity of a piece of art and mobile status that a Patek Philippe is, it's difficult to recommend a replica since that intangible something that makes owning one a unique experience is almost completely absent in the replica. That is not usually the case with other replicas.

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I was actually fairly unimpressed with what $20k got me from PP. Theres glashuttes I was more impressed with, and *MANY* other watches at that pricepoint that were more techinilcally impressive and more beautiful. PP's watches at the high high end are unmatched, but their standard watches? all fluff. Go ahead and buy yourself a 17,000 dollar QUARTZ watch :) Tell yourself its something special, lol. Its like loving ferrari the car, and buying a ferrari watch instead caus you cant afford the real deal. PP's high complications are awesome, but their low end, is just that.

I personally gushed how great they were until i actually went and tried on some of their watches at the normal price point. Totally unimpressive. Maybe its just me, but out of the 5 or so I tried on, they all just felt... meh. Nice watches certainly, but not miles above a Nardin, Glashutte, etc etc, which all have watches at a fraction of the price.

Of course my AD only had like one nice complication in the store.. the rest was all much cheaper stuff..

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[FONT=Century Gothic, sans-serif][SIZE=3]You can buy a Rolex SeaDweller that looks and performs just like the genuine watch. Opening the SeaDweller obliterates the fantasy but externally, it's all there. Most of the Panerais, no matter how you spin it, are equal to their genuine counterparts in every single way, including internally because they have no true exclusive movements, ssixes be damned.

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Thats crap. First, panerai replicas are notoriously bad (sorry pam guys, its true). Secondly, the company has quite a few in house movements. :) Why are you trying to compare panerai with PP again? silly thing to do. comparing a 5,000 dollar watch with a 17+k watch, and you act surprised? lol

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[FONT=Century Gothic, sans-serif][SIZE=3] No one really knows the brand well enough to tell you your watch is not real anyway; there's a lot of Paneristi that would easily be fooled by any of the modded Panerais around here.

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Again, I disagree ;) Pam reps are bad, paneristi are anal, and theres more of them around than PP nuts, so you have a 400x likely chance of someone calling you on your fake pam than you do on someone calling you on your fake PP, as most people don't own one, let alone know the whole line.

Ad with pam, its easier to know the ins and outs of 'one watch' (since they're all the same), than it is to know all the countless PP models. Theres more nautilus variations than there are panerai models LOL

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And you want to know what level of quality Panerai replicas have achieved? Some authorized stores REFUSE to do authentications now.

In contrast, you can take of these Patek watches to an authorized Patek dealer and they will NOT be mistaken for genuine. Ever. But that notwithstanding, this frees you from a lot of the extra money needed to make the watch look authentic or have an authentic movement. You can just simply ENJOY the watch. Besides, Patek Philippe, like any high-end French atelier, made SO MANY unique watches and variations on their general production watches, especially their complicated and grand complicated watches, that identifying one as real or replica at first, second or third glance is impossible in most cases.

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To be honest, my PP Naut is a much more 'accurate' rep than any of my panerai. Its not flawless, (no rep is), but I got the same 'feeling' holding the real one as I did holding my replica. I just need to send the crystal off for AR, and it's done. Same feel, and I'm reasonably certain i could walk into an AD, and they wouldnt say anything about (mostly because the employees of the AD were idiots who barely knew what they were talking about.. they had to look up the names of the models in their OWN case!)

So, yes, their central offices wouldnt be fooled, but I'd bet money on the AD being fooled, and not willing to make statement. I dont think they had a proper watchsmith there, considering they cant service them, so why have a watchsmith on site if he cant do anything?

Idiots who dont know their own watches in stock are very unlikely to be able to call a fake off my wrist, even if it was a ufanta special, let alone the 'best' PP rep out there.

Of course, that was only a naut, and not a super pricey complication... but its a good rep all the same.

and you certainly spotlighted about 80% of the seagull st19 reps out there, which is a good thing

just interesting that most of your choices utilized that movement :)

EDIT for the above post, I would never take a rep into an AD, just saying, the AD I went to, would be fooled, as they didnt have their facts straight, nor were they able to 'talk the talk'

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Originally Posted by roflwaffle

Umm?? *MANY* brands use entirely in house movements... why does that make PP special again? PP is special for a lot of reasons, but just the fact that they do in house movements does not make them special ;)I was actually fairly unimpressed with what $20k got me from PP. Theres glashuttes I was more impressed with, and *MANY* other watches at that pricepoint that were more techinilcally impressive and more beautiful. PP's watches at the high high end are unmatched, but their standard watches? all fluff. Go ahead and buy yourself a 17,000 dollar QUARTZ watch :) Tell yourself its something special, lol.

Posh, have you held a PP before?

It doesnt sound like it. I gushed how great they were until i actually went and tried on some of their watches at the normal price point. Totally unimpressive.Thats BS. First, panerai replicas are notoriously bad. Secondly, the company has quite a few in house movements. :) you just didnt research past the 6497 I suppose :) Why are you trying to compare panerai with PP again? silly thing to do. comparing a 5,000 dollar watch with a 17+k watch, and you act surprised?Again, BS ;) Pam reps are bad, paneristi are anal, and theres more of them, so you have a 400x likely chance of someone calling you on your fake pam than you do on someone calling you on your fake PP, as most people dont own one, let alone know the whole line. Ad with pam, its easier to know the ins and outs of 'one watch' (since theyre all the same), than it is to know all 4000 or so PP models.

To be honest, my PP Naut is a much more 'accurate' rep than any of my panerai. Its not flawless, (no rep is), but I got the same 'feeling' holding the real one as I did holding my replica. I just need to send the crystal off for AR, and it's done. Same feel, and I'm reasonably certain i could walk into an AD, and they wouldnt say anything about (mostly because the employees of the AD were idiots who barely knew what they were talking about.. they had to look up the names of the models in their OWN case!)

So, yes, their central offices wouldnt be fooled, but I'd bet money on the AD being fooled, and not willing to make statement. I dont think they had a proper watchsmith there, considering they cant service them, so why have a watchsmith on site if he cant do anything?

Idiots who dont know their own watches in stock are very unlikely to be able to call a fake off my wrist, even if it was a ufanta special, let alone the 'best' PP rep out there.

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It would be like a day without sunshine, wouldn't it?

Pancake, why do you insist on being contrary? My post is not referencing lower models of any of Patek, Breguet or Vacheron. I am only speaking about their complications and grand complications which have a completely different hand than other brands, which is why owning one is akin to a religious experience, at least for me. And yes, I have held, fondled, caressed, licked and slept with all the brands I mentioned (due to my friends and my job) except for Baume & Mercier.

I wasn't comparing Panerai to Patek, because there is NO comparison, but mentioned them for the sake of argument. Panerai has, as of 2008, four in-house movements. And yes, in the world of haute horology and collector class watches, in-house movements is the difference between a $10,000 watch and a $1,000,000 non-bejeweled watch. And a lot of brands DON'T have complete in-house movements which is exactly why the Swatch Group is the most powerful company in horology, low and high. Period. There's only a few companies that are completely independent of the Swatch Group's apron strings. Panerai isn't really one of them.

I would be willing to bet real cash money that a modded Panerai from this forum could be passed at an authorized dealer and on any Paneristi forum, anywhere. I would stake my credibility and real money on it. We've had bets before, Pancake, which of course I won. Would you be willing to make it interesting? My expertise is in luxury goods and yours in laughter and pancakes, correct? I'd be more than willing to match you, syrup for syrup, butter for butter.

removed my reply, as it has nothing to do with this thread..

how did the PP taste when you licked it?





wow, that just sounded wrong, I meant the patek...

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Originally Posted by roflwaffle

removed my reply, as it has nothing to do with this thread..

how did the PP taste when you licked it?





wow, that just sounded wrong, I meant the patek...

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Salty . . . ;)

Another excellent write up that shows a great depth of knowledge and excellent research, thanks Posh!!!!

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Originally Posted by louisruby

Another excellent write up that shows a great depth of knowledge and excellent research, thanks Posh!!!!

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Thank you! Glad you enjoyed it! :D

great post! I was in Chopard yesterday and couldn't get over how close the reps are to the Gen, just a shame they can't rep the Pens as well, would save me a fortune!

thanks for your time posh, it was great review.
next time i get a dress watch, im picking one up from your list. :)

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Originally Posted by dabalmury

thanks for your time posh, it was great review.
next time i get a dress watch, im picking one up from your list. :)

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Thanks, Dabal! Will this go with that suitcase I suggested? ;)

Wow. Great post Posh. I'm going to going hang leather on my Chopard thanks to the pics.

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Originally Posted by gazumi

Wow. Great post Posh. I'm going to going hang leather on my Chopard thanks to the pics.

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Thank you, Gaz.

But I'll give the other half of this thanks to DVS whose Chopard is being pictured. He thought that up all by his lonesome and the watch looks, to me, even MORE stunning.