Quote:
Originally Posted by razorphish
+1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by razorphish
+1
Oh. Okay. I see. The fact that there's a section of topics not pertaining to watches is okay as long as it's not mine.Quote:
Originally Posted by razorphish
I hope you're going into every thread that has nothing to do with watches and making sure they know to "stay on topic."
No? Just mine? I'm honored.
Self defense of course [aka protection], target practice and hunting. What do you think I was gonna say? Shoot everyone I can see? :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by Posh
@sfa, dc is a rough place, their crime statistics per small areas is retarded compared to other departments.
@posh, everyone "knows some people" who had "something happen" to them that goes directly against anything which is popular theory. I know cops who've gotten robbed at gun point, while being in full uniform, and had their guns on them.
You are right, guns are not the end all to any confrontation. But they are a great piece of mind, TOOL. They are tools, I can hammer in a nail with my glock just as well as I can with a hammer :rolleyes:
SFA has a great point about education. Once a person has been properly educated about guns and gun safety, the chance of them doing something, or allowing something to happen (a crime) is MUCH smaller than someone who is incompetent or has never been educated. Example - self defense shooting in an EXTREMELY high crime area, 2 robbers on 1, who had a concealed carry permit and fatally wounded one robber, otherwise he'd be dead.
Find out the stats on how many people who have VALID licenses to carry commit gun related crimes as compared to those do not have licenses to carry...the proof is right there.
Strength and the will to survive are a mindset and are the singular most important tool to surviving a violent encounter. There are however other tools. Everything from a kubotan to pepper spray to a firearm.Quote:
Originally Posted by Posh
Stand in front of me while I shoot at you with a 357- all the will and strength in the world won't help. Quite simply you will die. If you run, you will die tired. If you move to cover and return fire you stand a chance.
I chose DC because it consistently ranks, along with other cities where firearm ownership is restricted, in the top 10 per capita murder rates. Again you've touched on mindset. I've done details in Port Au Prince and Petionville Haiti unarmed and came out unscathed. Wasn't fun but a brain is your best weapon, everything else is secondary.Quote:
Originally Posted by Posh
Again, mindset. Along with having the firearm, the person must also be mentally prepared to take human life. Not many people have that within them in the US due to social conditioning. I have seen 110 pound women and dead 280 pound rapists. I've also seen what you describe.Quote:
Originally Posted by Posh
You are 100% correct. A firearm GUARANTEES nothing. What it does do is help to equalize a disparity in force. Notice I did not say it DOES equalize a disparity in force, just that it helps. Again mindset and training come into play here. Not just "I know how to load and unload it" or "I can put holes into paper" but proper training.Quote:
Originally Posted by Posh
Nothing makes you automatically safe, nor have I ever said that. I take my evidence from the Federal Bureau of Investigations Uniform Crime Report Annexes. 1.1 million defensive uses of firearms in 2006 (haven't seen 2007's stats since I'm where I am). That does not mean someone was shot- simply the presentation of the weapon in most cases dissuaded the skell from his/her chosen course of action.Quote:
Originally Posted by Posh
So you propose I do patrols through Baghdad armed only with my wits? Surely you jest :lol:. Here's a question for you- if wits are enough, why do police officers carry firearms? Even better why does the Secret Service carry them? Surely you do not posit they have no wits about them....Quote:
Originally Posted by Posh
A firearm is indeed a tool. It is used to harvest game, it serves as a badge of office (a military officer's sidearm), it serves as a visual deterrent (a police officer's sidearm) and it serves to defend one against violence.Quote:
Originally Posted by Posh
As for destroying life, there is something I instilled in every rookie I had on my range (over 400). In a deadly force incident, you do not shoot to kill. You shoot to live.
As I stated before, if I was not armed on numerous occasions I would be dead. I'm happy with the drugged out lunatic on the slab rather than me.
Posh,
Got your PM and I didn't understand it. I think if you're going to hang in this forum, you need a thicker skin.
Oh, by the way, why did you choose Mrs. Gordon Gekko as your moniker?
Don't you understand that the economic crisis in which we're faced has been caused by the very Wall Street dinks in which you've associated by name. I can almost guarantee that the majority of them, while finishing their Harvard MBA, jerked - off to that movie (Wall Street) and dropped a load every time Gekko uttered the pharase "Greed is Good'. Why choose that as a moniker - or did you just think it was cute and witty?
Besides, Gekko hated his wife. He was banging the mermaid.
R
In a single year, 3,012 children and teens were killed by gunfire in the United States, according to the latest national data released in 2002. That is one child every three hours; eight children every day; and more than 50 children every week. And every year, at least 4 to 5 times as many kids and teens suffer from non-fatal firearm injuries
American children are more at risk from firearms than the children of any other industrialized nation. In one year, firearms killed no children in Japan, 19 in Great Britain, 57 in Germany, 109 in France, 153 in Canada, and 5,285 in the United States
No, this thread is posted under "General Replica Discussion". Your post does not discuss a replica - unless you count the photos of the toy guns. If that's the case, then some of the toy guns seem to be fine replicas. I value sfa's input on the matter considering he's an expert and stated he could identify the genuine on which they're based. However, that wasn't your point. Your point was to post a thread and vomit your opinion. Again, in a watch forum under the wrong sub-thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by Posh
And WTF does a Tori Amos song have to do with it?
R
*sigh* Anti-gun liberals will always be trying to screw us gun owners around for their selfish purpose, let me explain one thing to you to set this straight: Guns are here to stay, they're not going anywhere, if you ban guns in any way to the people then the criminals will always find means to get them, they break the rules and they don't follow them hence why they're criminals and not law abiding citizens. To top it off, if guns are not at hand people can kill each other with anything, from kitchen knives to their own hands or feet, guns don't kill people and neither do bullets, people kill people and guns just make it easier, but so do knives and explosives which can be made easily with common household items [a.k.a. pipe bombs].
Guns are for hunting too, they're tools, tools for self defense, leisure and hunting... sure, they can be used for killing humans, but also that kitchen knife you use to chop vegetables while cooking dinner, even a broken piece of glass, etc. I'm pretty sure you would be thankful if your house were being robbed and had a shotgun or pistol in your hand to protect yourself with. :rolleyes:
I'm sorry, but saying guns are a bad thing is ignorance at its best.
Why did you feel the urge to tell us you are changing your life, quiting your phone and stuff? If posh can't put a piece about guns, why should we read your life experience?Quote:
Originally Posted by razorphish
(Even tho it was interesting)
This argument is just not good
Now let's break this down:Quote:
Originally Posted by superdave
That statistic came from a discredited report commissioned by Handgun Control Inc. No bias there right? The 3,012 figure was based on the FBI UCR however:
The initial figure includes "children" up to 25 years of age.
Of the 3,012 "children" killed in that study, 2,303 were convicted felons killing other convicted felons.
In addition, you state the latest figures are 3,012 children are killed every year, but one paragraph later the figure jumps by over 2,000. Which number is correct? I think the HCI website needs some proofreading.
Again I would refer you to your local police department and ask them to see the 2006 FBI Uniform Crime Report and Annexes. I can't quite remember which Annex deals with firearm deaths by age / type of weapon but I am sure you can find it by yourself.
Then again why confuse the issue with facts?
Does that number count the teenage gangbangers in DC, LA, Detroit, etc.
Edit: +1 SFA - that's what I was getting to.
Not in any order: rocks/sharpened sticks/ax/arrows/spears/swords/cannon/Greek fire/trebuchet/guillotine/musket/shotgun/pistol/grenades/smart bombs/laser weapons/etc.
From the dawn of man there has been weapons. To create an efficient weapon that makes killing easier. There are many purposes of such weapons, violet crime is a misuse of the weapon. Responsibility lies in the user and the intent of the user. Whether it would be to kill a deer for game, sport, food, enjoyment, population control. To kill the dangerous armed intruder/criminal in your home. To apprehend a criminal, to use as deterrent for other forms of violent crime. Or in war to follow the objective of the commanders, to defend, to protect, to bring justice.
You may not agree, you may feel guns are useless and bad for humans. That is your right. But that right most likely was won at one point in time with weapons.
Guns are power, guns are as great a force in evil as they are good. It depends who is holding it.
Convicted felons shooting convicted felons.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mudcat
The number drops dramatically when one uses a traditional age of majority (18).
More children (based on an 18 year old cutoff) die from drowning in 5 gallon buckets than from firearms.
+1 :applause:Quote:
Originally Posted by Yggdrasil
Olympic target pistols, and rifles for that mater, do not fire the .22LR round, which is, indeed, deadly. They use a shortened .22 caliber round... I've had bullets fail to penetrate cardboard at <20 yards. If you were to hit someone in the eye, then yes, the possibility exists that it could kill them. However, taking a baseball coming off a bat to the forehead has an equal chance, people let kids play baseball every day, and they are much more likely to be struck in the head by a baseball on accident than they are to be accidentally hit with a bullet fired by someone who knows what they're doing.Quote:
Originally Posted by TTK
Oh, and Posh, here are some pistols that are not designed to kill anything except for dead tree pulp.
Here is a question:
If guns are simply made to destroy life, why did the Jews in Warsaw take up arms against the Nazis? Surely they had their wits about them, and that's all they needed right?
Preach on YGG
oO what does this have to do in the topic? whats your point ? That guns are good thing because it helped people to defend themselve vs other people with guns? that's a bit cyclic.Quote:
Originally Posted by sfa437
YGG hit the nail right on the head.
I can kill someone with speed and efficiency using any of the above mentioned items and many more not listed. I am quite skilled in it actually.
If I was armed with anything other than a firearm, I would seriously reconsider my course of action however.
That is why I believe an armed society is a polite society.
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Originally Posted by sfa437
There is great evil is this world. Evil that is man, mankind needs to defend itself from itself. Harsh realities exist, existences so bleak and hellish the weapon is the only way to survive.
Not quite.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blobe
Posh posited that wits are enough no matter what.
I simply seek to dispel that myth.
Guns are neither good nor bad. The hand that wields it matters.
indeed, so why shall we give those bad hands a "tool" to kill someone on will?
doesn't matter if me, good boy, handle a gun, if someone wants to shoot me dead there is nothing i can do right? (except dodge bullet that is).
So hmm.. i'm still not buying the fact that even if everyone has a gun we will have a "polite" society, i see a bloodbath incoming.
exactly.Quote:
Originally Posted by sfa437
you can put a loaded gun on a table, and it can sit there forever before it is picked up and fired, but someone has to pick it up and fire it, for whatever reason.
Blobe- look at it this way:Quote:
Originally Posted by Blobe
I can make a firearm from a piece of steel- I've actually done it. A functioning, serviceable weapon. Making it illegal won't deter me (assuming I am a criminal). Now I have a firearm and nobody else does. I can essentially do with it whatever I wish.
Now lets assume there are other firearms about in the hands of regular citizens. I take pause in using my firearm because someone might engage me. It is not necessary for everyone to own a firearm. Not everyone is suited for carrying a weapon. It is the uncertainty of who might be carrying that gives the criminal pause.
As for a bloodbath, in states that have passed "Right to Carry" laws, violent crime has dropped an average of 38%. Quite the opposite. In fact when criminals were asked what they were the most afraid of the most common answer was being shot by a potential victim. Not the police, not jail, but being met with an armed citizen.
The problem isn't an inanimate object, it is lax enforcement of laws already existing for misuse of a firearm, it is lack of sufficient deterrent effect of prison in the US, a breakdown in societal mores, a culture of immediate gratification and the prevalence of serious narcotics (crack, meth, heroin) that creates the problem.
These feelings of power are the very reason kids should be educated about guns when they are young, so that they understand that while a firearm gives them a lot of potential power they also carry heavy consequences for misuse.Quote:
Originally Posted by Posh
One of my dad's friends has a Class III license, so he can legally own just about anything... I've gone out shooting with him, the only gun he's ever handed me that I got any sort of "rush" from, just holding it, was a Thompson, and that was more of a "holy sh*t, I'm holding the same kind of gun as Al Capone" type thing. I've gotten to shoot MP5s, AKS 74s, M-16A1s (fully automatic as apposed to 3 round burst), even an M2... I'd be lying if I said it wasn't fun to pump rounds into an empty hillside, but I never had any feeling of power, and I have a feeling if it wasn't such a rare thing to be able to do that, it wouldn't even be fun. The reason is I've been brought up around guns, they're a necessary fact of life on a farm (use 'em to shoot ground squirrels who chew through irrigation lines, buggers cause a metric sh*t ton of damage), and I know the consequences of using them against other people... if you exercise that power that a gun grants you, chances are things aren't going to work out well for you.
I'm surrounded by automatic weapons. Literally.
To my right is a MK-19 40mm automatic grenade launcher. In my desk drawer is a Glock 21 .45 ACP. Behind me are 12 HK MP5A3 submachineguns. To my left is an M16A4. If I walk across the yard I can draw the 4 GE 7.62 NATO miniguns out of the armory.
Neither I, nor anyone on my team, have the sudden overwhelming desire to go out and shoot each other because they are around.
This is because we have restraint and understand the consequencs of using them on each other. We've had knock-down, drag-out brawls in the team room while CARRYING weapons but nobody was shot. Why do you think that is?
God speed coming home, I know how hard that is, being away and getting that call from home about a noise in the middle of the night and feeling helpless.Quote:
Originally Posted by sfa437
"You can't grow guns, Guns are not addictive, While I agree a black market would always exist its much easier to control when walmart does not sell them at discount prices. Lets face it most of the violent criminals aren't in the upper income brackets, if guns are expensive because they are illegal they will be less pervasive"
I can go out, right now, and get an AK-47 off the street for <$500, that's a completely illegal gun, brought into the country illegally, purchased illegally, and is most likely to be used illegally... and it costs just about the same as a legal one (only the illegal one is fully automatic while most legal AKs have been modified to only be semi-auto)... there's no markup because it's illegal. $500 is "walking around" money for even low level weed dealers, you get up into Coke suppliers, the guys who actually shoot stuff up, $500 is nothing. Making guns illegal isn't going to make it any harder for criminals to get.
I'd like to see a breakdown on the number of crimes involving a gun committed by said gun's registered owner... I'm guessing it would be pretty close to nill.
pain-
I swear there's an annex. I used it for a block of instruction I gave right before I came over here. There's like 25 appendicies to the UCR. When I get home in Nov. I'll grab my copy and scan the pages applicable. Might have been the 03 or 04- right before the AWB sunsetted. I am also not saying the attacker was fought off with a firearm- that would fall under justifiable homicide. The simple presentation of the firearm stops a good majority of attacks.
Made a mistake on the individual who discredited the study. Worked for the CDC and his last name was Lott- first name is wrong.
How is someone wanting to whack you with a bat fantasy? I was a cop for 13 years- seen people beaten with all sorts of blunt instruments.
As for Colin being a psycho- yes he was. As were the deviants who engaged in school shootings and God help Postal Workers :lol: The point is gun control works as well as drug control. A criminal by definition does not obey laws. Why would one more law suddenly turn him/her into a model citizen?
I used the term "Assault Weapon" not firearm. I am differentiating between a handgun and the most demonized of inanimate objects- something that looks like something the military uses. If you really wanted "common sense" gun control- forget 1500 dollar rifles and get rid of the Lorcin/Jennings/Cobray piece of dogs**t ones made of pot metal that sell for 78 bucks. I've never taken an M1-A off a suspect but I have SCADS of these cheap POSs.
And no you can't grow guns, but given a machine shop and some bar stock I can manufacture a fully functioning rifle, handgun or shotgun. They are quite simple things mechanically. You can confiscate every firearm made by every manufacturer and I could still be armed. If I can do it, someone with a deviant, criminal mind surely could.
I was an officer in North Carolina after I separated from active duty Army. The views of officers outside major urban areas typically differ radically from those who live in cities. They are products of the environment. If virtually an entire population is told over and over that gun control works or guns are bad they will believe it. I personally do not imbue steel with a human trait. The firearm is neutral- the wielder is good or evil.
For the record: I do enjoy firearms. I build them, modify them and am a licensed gunsmith. I also make my living carrying a firearm. My point of view is as biased as anyone else's. I'm just here for the argument :D
Well! Posh really drew out all the gun freaks from the woodwork. In the immortal words of Corporal Jones from Dad's Army "They don't like it up them". I just wonder how many of these good folks with their pistols, their rifles and their 600 rounds a minute automatics have actually ever fired at and been fired at in earnest (SFA, you I know have, I don't include you in this). How many have actually killed another human being, and know how that feels. You know why we call the people we've killed, huns, gooks, terrs, muja hedeen? Because it dehumanises them and lets us, hopefully, live with ourselves when we snuff them out. They do the same I'm sure. That, good people, is what guns are for, to kill people. You can justify them all you like, but you see I, and no doubt others among us, know what they are really capable of. You can say it's people and not guns that kill people. So I can say in response, wake up and smell the coffee, you are so steeped in gun culture you cannot tell the difference. I have had experience of both and have no doubt which I prefer. If I never touch another gun it will be too soon.
Just my two cents worth to a pointless discussion.
Rock on Hyacinth Gecko!
Brightlight- I wish it were so.
If I knew, with ABSOLUTE certainty, that neither my family or I would be threatened with death I'd toss em all. I like archery too :D
Seriously- the problem in the States goes FAR beyond the availability of firearms. It is rooted too far to weed it out. We have gone from a gun culture to a drug culture, a violence culture, a greed culture. Instant gratification and damn the consequences seems to be the rallying cry of today. Heck, even our markets collapsing are symptoms of this.
As much as calling them ragheads or muj or other racially insensitive terms, dehumanizing does not work. Every life I have taken has affected me. I know those who died had families, children- someone who will miss their presence. The ones who brag about killing either never have or are slightly deranged.
You would be wrong, Ask any cop, they check who the gun is registered too first and that's usually the killer. Most murders are committed by someone the victim knows well with a legally acquired gun, sucks but true. More restriction = less guns, Less guns = higher prices Its really simple (Supply and Demand) make them illegal and it will go WAY up.Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Monkey
Yes, SFA, that's why I said it didn't apply to you. Sadly, I think you're right about your society having gone too far. We haven't yet gone that far in the UK, thank goodness, but we are going that way, thanks to the influences we've imported. But how are we to get out of the spiral?
You're spot on too about dehumanising not working, that's got a lot to do with my feeling the way I do.
Well price has never really been a factor.
A Lorcin .25 that sells for 70 bucks legally sells for 250-300 illegally. For a street level dealer an income of 3000 dollars a week is not uncommon. Yes restriction on firearms will decrease the supply amongst those inclined to obey the law. Criminals by definition do not.
As far as I know, crack cocaine is illegal. Can you still buy crack cocaine in your county? That is the main fallacy behind gun control- that criminals will suddenly stop in their tracks and not KILL someone because the gun they are using is illegal.
Here's a quick Google- following came from Canada's House of Commons (not sure what that translates into in the US)
“Between 1997 and 2003, 574 homicides were committed with handguns. Among the 31% (176) of homicides in which a handgun was recovered, about three quarters (72%) of the handguns were not registered. About four in five (85%) did not possess a valid FAC of Firearms License. Where ownership of the handgun could be determined by police, the accused owned the handgun in half (49%) of these homicides, compared to 3% in which it was owned by the victim.”
About 50-50 when the handgun was registered.
For CCW holders in NC, last year 2 committed crimes with their handguns. Can't comment on other states.
As odd as it sounds, considering my job and location, I think the Muslims have it down right. YUP! I said it!Quote:
Originally Posted by Brightlight
There are quite a few members here who have been to / lived in / served in the Middle East. Concepts such as respect for family, respect for elders and most importantly SHAME have weight and value here. That is what society at large has lost and I do not seeing us getting it back anytime soon if ever.
I've pretty much written off the United States long term. I have property here in Iraq (well Kurdistan, almost another world). There I would have no need for a firearm, as a matter of fact I walk the streets unarmed quite regularly when I am there.
I live in Amsterdam, guns are illegal here. Ofcourse, like in every country where guns are illegal, it is possible to get one. Do I feel unsafe when I walk the streets, knowing I don't have a gun and someone around me, might have one? Nope...
The crime/kill rates here are waaaay less then in the US.. I really believe it is because we are prohibited to carry a gun.
How many times has it been that a kid kills a a lot of other kids/teachers at school in the US in the last 10 years?? I lost count..
I can only compare it to the Netherlands and can only count one.. A boy shot his teacher. Ofcourse, the US is 100 times bigger (if not more) than the country I live in... But still...
Personally, I don't think I would feel much safer knowing everyone around me carries a gun.. Too many crazy people to trust with one..
I know, even a pen or a paperclip can kill someone.. And yes, if you are a Myth Buster of SFA you can build your own gun..
But what do I know, I live in a city where weed/hasj is legal and I'm loving it! :D :pimp:
www.falfiles.com/forumsQuote:
Originally Posted by DVS
Quite a few people there have done it.
www.thehighroad.org
Another place where building of firearms is rather commonplace.
People have been building functional firearms since the 1500's with hand tools. Why would you suggest that someone with a modern machine shop and access to quality steels would be incapable of fabricating a firearm?
quite the thread.
i'm not against guns, and i would own one if i lived in a place that made it easy to obtain and carry a firearm.
i am very happy though, that i do live in a place where hand-guns are not common, are not legal to carry, and are much harder to obtain.
at least if i get shot while walking down my street, it will shock the hell out of the entire population in this area.
spekoli- YOU GOT IT BROTHER!
It would SHOCK someone.
We've lost that.