Me And A Gun

[SFA437]

In a single year, 3,012 children and teens were killed by gunfire in the United States, according to the latest national data released in 2002. That is one child every three hours; eight children every day; and more than 50 children every week. And every year, at least 4 to 5 times as many kids and teens suffer from non-fatal firearm injuries
American children are more at risk from firearms than the children of any other industrialized nation. In one year, firearms killed no children in Japan, 19 in Great Britain, 57 in Germany, 109 in France, 153 in Canada, and 5,285 in the United States

Now let's break this down:

That statistic came from a discredited report commissioned by Handgun Control Inc. No bias there right? The 3,012 figure was based on the FBI UCR however:

The initial figure includes "children" up to 25 years of age.

Of the 3,012 "children" killed in that study, 2,303 were convicted felons killing other convicted felons.

In addition, you state the latest figures are 3,012 children are killed every year, but one paragraph later the figure jumps by over 2,000. Which number is correct? I think the HCI website needs some proofreading.

Again I would refer you to your local police department and ask them to see the 2006 FBI Uniform Crime Report and Annexes. I can't quite remember which Annex deals with firearm deaths by age / type of weapon but I am sure you can find it by yourself.

Then again why confuse the issue with facts?

[Mudcat]

Does that number count the teenage gangbangers in DC, LA, Detroit, etc.


Edit: +1 SFA - that's what I was getting to.

[Yggdrasil]

Not in any order: rocks/sharpened sticks/ax/arrows/spears/swords/cannon/Greek fire/trebuchet/guillotine/musket/shotgun/pistol/grenades/smart bombs/laser weapons/etc.


From the dawn of man there has been weapons. To create an efficient weapon that makes killing easier. There are many purposes of such weapons, violet crime is a misuse of the weapon. Responsibility lies in the user and the intent of the user. Whether it would be to kill a deer for game, sport, food, enjoyment, population control. To kill the dangerous armed intruder/criminal in your home. To apprehend a criminal, to use as deterrent for other forms of violent crime. Or in war to follow the objective of the commanders, to defend, to protect, to bring justice.

You may not agree, you may feel guns are useless and bad for humans. That is your right. But that right most likely was won at one point in time with weapons.

Guns are power, guns are as great a force in evil as they are good. It depends who is holding it.

[SFA437]

Does that number count the teenage gangbangers in DC, LA, Detroit, etc.

Convicted felons shooting convicted felons.

The number drops dramatically when one uses a traditional age of majority (18).

More children (based on an 18 year old cutoff) die from drowning in 5 gallon buckets than from firearms.

[Guanaco]

Not in any order: rocks/sharpened sticks/ax/arrows/spears/swords/cannon/Greek fire/trebuchet/guillotine/musket/shotgun/pistol/grenades/smart bombs/laser weapons/etc.


From the dawn of man there has been weapons. To create an efficient weapon that makes killing easier. There are many purposes of such weapons, violet crime is a misuse of the weapon. Responsibility lies in the user and the intent of the user. Whether it would be to kill a deer for game, sport, food, enjoyment, population control. To kill the dangerous armed intruder/criminal in your home. To apprehend a criminal, to use as deterrent for other forms of violent crime. Or in war to follow the objective of the commanders, to defend, to protect, to bring justice.

You may not agree, you may feel guns are useless and bad for humans. That is your right. But that right most likely was won at one point in time with weapons.

Guns are power, guns are as great a force in evil as they are good. It depends who is holding it.

+1

[The_Monkey]

Are you on medication....if not you should be....try whispering that in the ears of all the corpses that have been killed with a .22LR...yes ..on ocassion......even a pellet gun .22....!

Olympic target pistols, and rifles for that mater, do not fire the .22LR round, which is, indeed, deadly. They use a shortened .22 caliber round... I've had bullets fail to penetrate cardboard at <20 yards. If you were to hit someone in the eye, then yes, the possibility exists that it could kill them. However, taking a baseball coming off a bat to the forehead has an equal chance, people let kids play baseball every day, and they are much more likely to be struck in the head by a baseball on accident than they are to be accidentally hit with a bullet fired by someone who knows what they're doing.

Oh, and Posh, here are some pistols that are not designed to kill anything except for dead tree pulp.

[SFA437]

Here is a question:

If guns are simply made to destroy life, why did the Jews in Warsaw take up arms against the Nazis? Surely they had their wits about them, and that's all they needed right?

[Mudcat]

Preach on YGG

[Blobe]

Here is a question:

If guns are simply made to destroy life, why did the Jews in Warsaw take up arms against the Nazis? Surely they had their wits about them, and that's all they needed right?

oO what does this have to do in the topic? whats your point ? That guns are good thing because it helped people to defend themselve vs other people with guns? that's a bit cyclic.

[SFA437]

YGG hit the nail right on the head.

I can kill someone with speed and efficiency using any of the above mentioned items and many more not listed. I am quite skilled in it actually.

If I was armed with anything other than a firearm, I would seriously reconsider my course of action however.

That is why I believe an armed society is a polite society.

[Yggdrasil]

Here is a question:

If guns are simply made to destroy life, why did the Jews in Warsaw take up arms against the Nazis? Surely they had their wits about them, and that's all they needed right?

There is great evil is this world. Evil that is man, mankind needs to defend itself from itself. Harsh realities exist, existences so bleak and hellish the weapon is the only way to survive.

[SFA437]

oO what does this have to do in the topic? whats your point ? That guns are good thing because it helped people to defend themselve vs other people with guns? that's a bit cyclic.

Not quite.

Posh posited that wits are enough no matter what.

I simply seek to dispel that myth.

Guns are neither good nor bad. The hand that wields it matters.

[Blobe]

indeed, so why shall we give those bad hands a "tool" to kill someone on will?
doesn't matter if me, good boy, handle a gun, if someone wants to shoot me dead there is nothing i can do right? (except dodge bullet that is).
So hmm.. i'm still not buying the fact that even if everyone has a gun we will have a "polite" society, i see a bloodbath incoming.

[rAc]

Not quite.

Posh posited that wits are enough no matter what.

I simply seek to dispel that myth.

Guns are neither good nor bad. The hand that wields it matters.

exactly.

you can put a loaded gun on a table, and it can sit there forever before it is picked up and fired, but someone has to pick it up and fire it, for whatever reason.

[SFA437]

indeed, so why shall we give those bad hands a "tool" to kill someone on will?
doesn't matter if me, good boy, handle a gun, if someone wants to shoot me dead there is nothing i can do right? (except dodge bullet that is).
So hmm.. i'm still not buying the fact that even if everyone has a gun we will have a "polite" society, i see a bloodbath incoming.

Blobe- look at it this way:

I can make a firearm from a piece of steel- I've actually done it. A functioning, serviceable weapon. Making it illegal won't deter me (assuming I am a criminal). Now I have a firearm and nobody else does. I can essentially do with it whatever I wish.

Now lets assume there are other firearms about in the hands of regular citizens. I take pause in using my firearm because someone might engage me. It is not necessary for everyone to own a firearm. Not everyone is suited for carrying a weapon. It is the uncertainty of who might be carrying that gives the criminal pause.

As for a bloodbath, in states that have passed "Right to Carry" laws, violent crime has dropped an average of 38%. Quite the opposite. In fact when criminals were asked what they were the most afraid of the most common answer was being shot by a potential victim. Not the police, not jail, but being met with an armed citizen.

The problem isn't an inanimate object, it is lax enforcement of laws already existing for misuse of a firearm, it is lack of sufficient deterrent effect of prison in the US, a breakdown in societal mores, a culture of immediate gratification and the prevalence of serious narcotics (crack, meth, heroin) that creates the problem.

[The_Monkey]

Guns make you feel powerful and for people with no power whatsoever, it can be a rush, even if you don't use the item in question for deciding if someone can can continue to live. The psychological component of being around a gun, holding gun, pointing a gun at something or someone, cannot be ignored. I held a $100,00 Purdey rifle in England which in addition to being as beautiful as any sculpture I've seen was also deadly. I find it very difficult to see a piece of art that also doubles as a thing that destroys a life; art was never meant for one living creature to kill another living creature.

If you're a weak, disenfranchised, ineffectual or scared person, having a gun, which gives you the ultimate power, which is the power over life and death, is a feeling that a lot of people actuallyy enjoy. That's scary to me. I would think hard before being around someone who enjoys owning lots of guns, holding guns, shooting guns and all that. I'm automatically wary of that person, which I don't forsee changing. And I don't mean an adult who sharpshoots or clay shoots; those people aren't shooting living things.

These feelings of power are the very reason kids should be educated about guns when they are young, so that they understand that while a firearm gives them a lot of potential power they also carry heavy consequences for misuse.

One of my dad's friends has a Class III license, so he can legally own just about anything... I've gone out shooting with him, the only gun he's ever handed me that I got any sort of "rush" from, just holding it, was a Thompson, and that was more of a "holy sh*t, I'm holding the same kind of gun as Al Capone" type thing. I've gotten to shoot MP5s, AKS 74s, M-16A1s (fully automatic as apposed to 3 round burst), even an M2... I'd be lying if I said it wasn't fun to pump rounds into an empty hillside, but I never had any feeling of power, and I have a feeling if it wasn't such a rare thing to be able to do that, it wouldn't even be fun. The reason is I've been brought up around guns, they're a necessary fact of life on a farm (use 'em to shoot ground squirrels who chew through irrigation lines, buggers cause a metric sh*t ton of damage), and I know the consequences of using them against other people... if you exercise that power that a gun grants you, chances are things aren't going to work out well for you.

[SFA437]

I'm surrounded by automatic weapons. Literally.

To my right is a MK-19 40mm automatic grenade launcher. In my desk drawer is a Glock 21 .45 ACP. Behind me are 12 HK MP5A3 submachineguns. To my left is an M16A4. If I walk across the yard I can draw the 4 GE 7.62 NATO miniguns out of the armory.

Neither I, nor anyone on my team, have the sudden overwhelming desire to go out and shoot each other because they are around.

This is because we have restraint and understand the consequencs of using them on each other. We've had knock-down, drag-out brawls in the team room while CARRYING weapons but nobody was shot. Why do you think that is?

[painm8ker]

Lets say someone like me, with my degree of training was determined to kill you- even without a firearm. Let's say a knife, or even less offensive- a baseball bat. What is the best response?

Call the police- I've turned your head into a canoe before you hit the last "1" in 911

Run- I routinely do 5:30 miles and can sprint quite well. You [might] get away if you're lucky and I'm tired

Back up 4 quick steps and draw a firearm- The sight of the firearm backs me off, and if it doesn't two center of mass and one cranio-ocular tops me. In addition reaction gaps favor the intial move, so you drawing the weapon is completed before I can backswing.

Um yeah, OK maybe but who knows, I am pretty spry :-) and I am from Long Island too, but fantasy land fights are not real stick to the facts please


The FBI UCR (Uniform Crime Report) for 2006 shows the defensive usage of firearms 1,188,607 times (reported to local PD). According to you- over 1.2 million people died in the US last year from shooting family members. Laughable. Do some research prior to spouting off statistics and BTW Dr. Trent Lott has completely discredited the study from which that piece of rhetoric came from and the authors themselves have apologized and said their research was designed to produce a certain result.

Did Trent Lott suggest that in a country that had 1.4 million violent crimes 1.2 million of them were fought off with privately owned guns? I don't know where you got that statistic but the 2006 UCR says

An estimated 1,417,745 violent crimes occurred nationwide in 2006.
In 2006, firearms were used in 67.9 percent of the Nations murders, in 42.2 percent of the robbery offenses, and in 21.9 percent of the aggravated assaults. (Weapon data are not collected for forcible rape offenses.)
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2006/offe...ime/index.html

The UCR does not even collect statistics about self defense. You are reading very bad NRA rhetoric.




Ah- so the 1st Amendment should only apply to a moveable typeface printing press and quill pens. Plus the 4th and 6th should only apply to your actual person and home, allowing warrantless searches of you e-mail and interception of telephone conversations. None of those were around when the Constitution was framed (please note capitalization of Constitution). In addition a chemical weapon is regulated by international treaties and is an indiscrimate weapon similar to explosive devices. "Arms" in the frame of the Constitution were weapons commonly employed by civilian infantry raised in time of war. Rifles and handguns predominantly but a shotgun showed up on occasion.

Agreed Flint lock's, are cool everything else is fair game
As a side note the word "regulated" does NOT mean Federally controlled. The word in the 1700's meant drilled or trained.


So we do not have thieves, kidnappers, rapists and murderers in the United States? Thank GOD! All the cops can go home and we'll all sit around sipping decaf vente vanilla chais at Starbucks and share a group hug! Hallelujah- Paradise on Earth- right in downtown Washington DC (oh wait can't go there after dark- wonder why since we have no murderers, kidnappers or rapists).

I was a cop for 13 years and the best thing going is an armed populace. Even Colin Ferguson stated he chose NY to go on a rampage because he KNEW nobody would have a firearm and be able to stop him. My wife carries a .38 Airweight and I feel better knowing she does. I will never subscribe to a theory that says it is perfectly OK for a 110 pound woman to fistfight a 280 pound rapist.

Of course we have that here, I live in NY (I am from LI also) but its about percentages, if you run your life around a 1 in a million event your not being very smart. Colin F was a Psycho it happens its VERY VERY rare if that's the basis of your argument for unilateral gun ownership your just looking for any excuse because you like guns.


Well since more people are killed yearly with blunt instruments than with firearms- nobody should have one. Sorry Home Depot and Louisville Slugger. More people are manually killed each year than with erroneously named "assault weapons" so nobody should have hands and feet. Well just the police and the Army- they're the only ones who really need them.

Yeah sorry wrong again Guns almost 70 % read the report you quoted

In a perfect world, there would be no use for a firearm for defensive purposes. We do not however live in a perfect world. I've seen depravity in the States that outshines what I see here in Iraq. Most of that is fueled by drugs with the occasional true sicko tossed in the mix. Making a firearm illegal does absolutely nothing. Dope is illegal yet I can get whatever I want less than 30 min from my front door. I'd rather not fistfight the crackhead with the knife, or even the crackhead with a gun. I can out-think, out-move and out-shoot 90% of the population. I simply refuse to throw myself on the mercy of those who have none.
You can't grow guns, Guns are not addictive, While I agree a black market would always exist its much easier to control when walmart does not sell them at discount prices. Lets face it most of the violent criminals aren't in the upper income brackets, if guns are expensive because they are illegal they will be less pervasive
While I love Posh to death- I am glad, TRULY glad, she has not had to face the harsh realities of what people do to each other and I pray she never does.

Some of us (Anubis, Guacano and Novesh for example) have seen it up close and personal. I've seen mass graves and smelled that smell that lives inside you forever. I've seen entire families killed by a single intruder and dealt with the aftermath of a home invasion gang rape; but I have also seen a dead skell in a hallway with a scared citizen holding a firearm. I know which way I'd rather have an incident work out.

As for my child, I would rather him be EDUCATED about firearms, to know their inherent destructive power and that people don't respawn after a .45 to the dome like in Call of Duty. I want him to look at a firearm as a tool and not something "cool" to be f**ked with when a parent or adult is not around. I want him to know that if someone is playing with a gun or finds one, he should leave the area, find an adult and tell them what is going on. Education trumps ignorance every.... single.... last.... time.... period.

I want my wife to know she won't have to wait 3-5 minutes for the cops to show up if someone kicks in the front door, she can deal with the situation immediately.

Again I prefer not to have my family dependant on mercy from those who have none.

I do however respect her point of view and her decision to not own a firearm is hers and hers alone. I just do not wish for others to force a false worldview of this supposed peace, love and farfegnugen that we supposedly have in the US. Reality intrudes on my life quite a bit and I will choose to carry or not to carry a weapon myself- it is not anyone's place to choose FOR me.
OK well I respect your point of view even though its based on a lot of incorrect facts, do us both a favor and read the UCR. I spent many years in the Middle East most recently from Oct 2001 until June of 2003 working for the military and saw the cruel side of life, I lived in South and Central America for years, again with the Military, and saw unimaginable violence and poverty, I grew up in NY and saw and read many things daily about violence in the US every cop I know here in NY screams for better gun control not sure where you were a cop but its a surprising point of view.

"Si vis pacem, para bellum" Those who wish peace prepare for war. Just as valid now as it was 2000 years ago. I've seen organized war and random civilian violence up close and personal. I have taken life in defense of myself and others not just here but in the States.

In ancient Rome it was illegal to even wear a uniform in the city of Rome let alone carry a weapon. I agree with this, kill as many as you want over there but don't bring it back with you. yes there was still violence in the city things were far safer then any place else.

It is in NO way pretty, or full of glory or to be crowed about over drinks. It is a deeply moving event. It wasn't fun, or a "rush".

All in all, I am glad I was armed at the time because if I was not, I would not be here typing and my wife would be a widow and my son without a father.

God speed coming home, I know how hard that is, being away and getting that call from home about a noise in the middle of the night and feeling helpless.

[The_Monkey]

"You can't grow guns, Guns are not addictive, While I agree a black market would always exist its much easier to control when walmart does not sell them at discount prices. Lets face it most of the violent criminals aren't in the upper income brackets, if guns are expensive because they are illegal they will be less pervasive"
I can go out, right now, and get an AK-47 off the street for <$500, that's a completely illegal gun, brought into the country illegally, purchased illegally, and is most likely to be used illegally... and it costs just about the same as a legal one (only the illegal one is fully automatic while most legal AKs have been modified to only be semi-auto)... there's no markup because it's illegal. $500 is "walking around" money for even low level weed dealers, you get up into Coke suppliers, the guys who actually shoot stuff up, $500 is nothing. Making guns illegal isn't going to make it any harder for criminals to get.

I'd like to see a breakdown on the number of crimes involving a gun committed by said gun's registered owner... I'm guessing it would be pretty close to nill.

[SFA437]

pain-

I swear there's an annex. I used it for a block of instruction I gave right before I came over here. There's like 25 appendicies to the UCR. When I get home in Nov. I'll grab my copy and scan the pages applicable. Might have been the 03 or 04- right before the AWB sunsetted. I am also not saying the attacker was fought off with a firearm- that would fall under justifiable homicide. The simple presentation of the firearm stops a good majority of attacks.

Made a mistake on the individual who discredited the study. Worked for the CDC and his last name was Lott- first name is wrong.

How is someone wanting to whack you with a bat fantasy? I was a cop for 13 years- seen people beaten with all sorts of blunt instruments.

As for Colin being a psycho- yes he was. As were the deviants who engaged in school shootings and God help Postal Workers The point is gun control works as well as drug control. A criminal by definition does not obey laws. Why would one more law suddenly turn him/her into a model citizen?

I used the term "Assault Weapon" not firearm. I am differentiating between a handgun and the most demonized of inanimate objects- something that looks like something the military uses. If you really wanted "common sense" gun control- forget 1500 dollar rifles and get rid of the Lorcin/Jennings/Cobray piece of dogs**t ones made of pot metal that sell for 78 bucks. I've never taken an M1-A off a suspect but I have SCADS of these cheap POSs.

And no you can't grow guns, but given a machine shop and some bar stock I can manufacture a fully functioning rifle, handgun or shotgun. They are quite simple things mechanically. You can confiscate every firearm made by every manufacturer and I could still be armed. If I can do it, someone with a deviant, criminal mind surely could.

I was an officer in North Carolina after I separated from active duty Army. The views of officers outside major urban areas typically differ radically from those who live in cities. They are products of the environment. If virtually an entire population is told over and over that gun control works or guns are bad they will believe it. I personally do not imbue steel with a human trait. The firearm is neutral- the wielder is good or evil.

For the record: I do enjoy firearms. I build them, modify them and am a licensed gunsmith. I also make my living carrying a firearm. My point of view is as biased as anyone else's. I'm just here for the argument

[Brightlight]

Well! Posh really drew out all the gun freaks from the woodwork. In the immortal words of Corporal Jones from Dad's Army "They don't like it up them". I just wonder how many of these good folks with their pistols, their rifles and their 600 rounds a minute automatics have actually ever fired at and been fired at in earnest (SFA, you I know have, I don't include you in this). How many have actually killed another human being, and know how that feels. You know why we call the people we've killed, huns, gooks, terrs, muja hedeen? Because it dehumanises them and lets us, hopefully, live with ourselves when we snuff them out. They do the same I'm sure. That, good people, is what guns are for, to kill people. You can justify them all you like, but you see I, and no doubt others among us, know what they are really capable of. You can say it's people and not guns that kill people. So I can say in response, wake up and smell the coffee, you are so steeped in gun culture you cannot tell the difference. I have had experience of both and have no doubt which I prefer. If I never touch another gun it will be too soon.

Just my two cents worth to a pointless discussion.

Rock on Hyacinth Gecko!

[SFA437]

Brightlight- I wish it were so.

If I knew, with ABSOLUTE certainty, that neither my family or I would be threatened with death I'd toss em all. I like archery too

Seriously- the problem in the States goes FAR beyond the availability of firearms. It is rooted too far to weed it out. We have gone from a gun culture to a drug culture, a violence culture, a greed culture. Instant gratification and damn the consequences seems to be the rallying cry of today. Heck, even our markets collapsing are symptoms of this.

As much as calling them ragheads or muj or other racially insensitive terms, dehumanizing does not work. Every life I have taken has affected me. I know those who died had families, children- someone who will miss their presence. The ones who brag about killing either never have or are slightly deranged.

[painm8ker]

I'd like to see a breakdown on the number of crimes involving a gun committed by said gun's registered owner... I'm guessing it would be pretty close to nill.

You would be wrong, Ask any cop, they check who the gun is registered too first and that's usually the killer. Most murders are committed by someone the victim knows well with a legally acquired gun, sucks but true. More restriction = less guns, Less guns = higher prices Its really simple (Supply and Demand) make them illegal and it will go WAY up.

[Brightlight]

Yes, SFA, that's why I said it didn't apply to you. Sadly, I think you're right about your society having gone too far. We haven't yet gone that far in the UK, thank goodness, but we are going that way, thanks to the influences we've imported. But how are we to get out of the spiral?

You're spot on too about dehumanising not working, that's got a lot to do with my feeling the way I do.

[SFA437]

Well price has never really been a factor.

A Lorcin .25 that sells for 70 bucks legally sells for 250-300 illegally. For a street level dealer an income of 3000 dollars a week is not uncommon. Yes restriction on firearms will decrease the supply amongst those inclined to obey the law. Criminals by definition do not.

As far as I know, crack cocaine is illegal. Can you still buy crack cocaine in your county? That is the main fallacy behind gun control- that criminals will suddenly stop in their tracks and not KILL someone because the gun they are using is illegal.

Here's a quick Google- following came from Canada's House of Commons (not sure what that translates into in the US)

“Between 1997 and 2003, 574 homicides were committed with handguns. Among the 31% (176) of homicides in which a handgun was recovered, about three quarters (72%) of the handguns were not registered. About four in five (85%) did not possess a valid FAC of Firearms License. Where ownership of the handgun could be determined by police, the accused owned the handgun in half (49%) of these homicides, compared to 3% in which it was owned by the victim.”

About 50-50 when the handgun was registered.

For CCW holders in NC, last year 2 committed crimes with their handguns. Can't comment on other states.