Baby, Give It Up!: Everybody wants you . . .

[Kollektor]

In America, it's "Survival of the Unfittest"

[mingus2112]

In America, it's "Survival of the Unfittest"

EW. . .i hate being part of the mcdonalds generation. the worst part is that i sometimes crave it. . .and always ALWAYS feel sick within 10 minutes of eating there. . .WITHOUT FAIL.

[Kollektor]

I stay clear of fast food when at all possible. Nasty.

[vicsteele]

yes

[Posh]

In America, it's "Survival of the Unfittest"

Um, ew. I like McDonald's, I won't lie. Sometimes the fries call out to you. But I do it once a month, not once a week like Paris and Nicole there. The true travesty is this: someone out there thinks this is attractive and that's the world I DO NOT want to live in.

You're right. It IS an unfair world. I also agree with you 100% about charity beginning at home. It's hard to express this without sounding like you only care about people close to you. For example: My sister works for some religious group out in Arizona where she lives. It's on the college campus that she went to. They work with these college kids and their big "thing" a few times a year is getting on a bus and heading down to Mexico to fix houses for people. Now, i'm not denying that she's doing good. . .she certainly is. . .but the big joke around the dinner table was to picture all of these college kids in DOWNTOWN PHOENIX getting on a bus to Mexico. . .while passing up all the homeless people. . .walking around them. . .pretending they don't exist.

The example of my sister brings up another point. Not sure how on topic it is. . .so i'll keep it short. I think Posh's original post was/is important and we should get back to that. . .

So on that last example of my sister's "mission trip," they head down to Mexico and happily fix houses. . .talk to the people about life. . .maybe throw a few God this and God that's in there. . .but they're pretty respectful (from what she tells me). So that's fine. On the other hand, when they DO provide help to the needy in the community, it's always something of a "bring them to church" type of deal. You come to bible study, and you get a free meal.

That's what I do NOT consider charity. They're using charity to bait people into something.

Finally, I think whether you would like to admit it or not, "feeling good about it" is an important part of being "charitable."

-James

Yeah, I don't believe listening to a sermon should be the prerequisite for anything either. If people want to know about what you believe, that's fine. But I find religion, in mixed company, is not best discussed over a meal.

Honestly, feeling good about making a difference is a side effect of helping another person in need and it's very natural.

Do we have, or should we feel, a responsibility to our fellow humans? It's a good question but where do you draw the line, unless you become a buddhist where all life is sacred. I guess in the end it's a personal choice. I have to say as I get older the "charity begins at home" tenet holds sway. I would rather give to a homeless person living on the street in London than to someone in Africa, India, or wherever. Don't know why this should be, but it is the way I feel.

It is a good question. What's your answer? I think life is special and we do have a divine edict to help our fellow human. It doesn't seem you're quite convinced either way.

Give to whoever you want, Blight. Give as much as you want. Give wherever you want. Give whatever you want. Tell whoever you want. The point is to just give a little.

[mingus2112]

[SIZE=3][COLOR=Red]Yeah, I don't believe listening to a sermon should be the prerequisite for anything either. If people want to know about what you believe, that's fine. But I find religion, in mixed company, is not best discussed over a meal.

See, I don't have that much of a problem with a discussion "over a meal" or what have you. It may not be what I believe but, at least in my sister's case, i'm very interested to hear what she has to say. I think that's a lot different than being forced to listen to a sermon (in return for a hot meal or otherwise).

Thinking about what BrightLight said. . .I think maybe we should feel a responsibility. . .but we don't always. Along those same lines, do the reasons for those feelings matter? Taking a generic religious point of view you could have two very different rationals for acting charitable. Someone who was brought up in a religiously moderate and loving family might feel a responsibility because he/she was brought up to believe that it's the right thing to do. Another extreme point of view of the person who was brought up in a very strict, fundamental religious household and who feels like he/she needs to act charitably to avoid burning in hell. But those are topics for another time!

I think the main theme here is this: Maybe you want to be charitable, maybe you don't. If you don't, that's your choice. If you do, you should know that there are plenty of options for you to help your fellow human beings. You don't have to quit your job and join the peace corps. You could volunteer once a month at a soup kitchen or even doing something small by making sure you compliment at least one person every day. Something that small can make a huge impact.

-J

[Yggdrasil]

I'm an atheist so I don't believe that I will be rewarded in an afterlife for my charitable acts.

This, however, doesn't stop me from being charitable when I can afford to be. I don't think it benefits me to discuss how much and to whom I donate

+1

Always remember the kindness and things given to you. It is not a kindness if you remind the person that has received or is receiving that your are the one giving. Do good for goodness sake not for any reward or positive feedback.

[Brightlight]

It is a good question. What's your answer? I think life is special and we do have a divine edict to help our fellow human. It doesn't seem you're quite convinced either way.

Give to whoever you want, Blight. Give as much as you want. Give wherever you want. Give whatever you want. Tell whoever you want. The point is to just give a little.

It's a question I don't know the answer to, and don't mind admitting it. And here is why. If life is special, is human life more than animal life? Or less in the case of the medical/religious viewpoint. We would put an animal "out of its misery" whereas a human in similar state who can and does actually ask to be put out of his misery is denied this final service on the grounds that human life is special, god given, whatever your flavour of religion states, for make no mistake it is the sway of religion that ultimately denies the terminally sick person his only relief. You can never "save life", all you can do is postpone death. Humanists generally have no such bias. As the play says "Whose life is it anyway?".

Anyhow I'm relieved I have your permission to excercise my free will

The point? I'm less sure about that. Giving per se is not the point, as someone said much earlier in this thread the point is making a difference. One hell of a lot of charities actually do not accomplish this.

[Chris V.]

i believe in Karma what goes around comes around.. My choice of religion is Wiccan.

[Posh]

+1

Always remember the kindness and things given to you. It is not a kindness if you remind the person that has received or is receiving that your are the one giving. Do good for goodness sake not for any reward or positive feedback.

"+1" meaning you're atheist and so you do charitable things for sake of doing them without expecting an afterlife? I think it's always interesting how people automatically equate the reason someone who is religious and does something charitable is trying to get a second life. I don't think it's always about that for many people, especially in the world we live in now. I'm not Orthodox but I do hold fast in Maimonides' 13 Principals of faith, especially that G-d knows your intentions and thoughts and the reason behind why you do anything:

Who fashioned the hearts of them all, Who comprehends all their actions
-- Pslam 33:15



Atheism is something that is proven to be more prevalent the more educated someone is or thinks they are. I find the exact opposite to be true for me. The more I learn, the more I believe that there is something supremely divine behind it all and the more in awe of G-d I become. Women are actually less like to be atheist than men, Ygg. I'm curious, when did you come to this thought process.

It's a question I don't know the answer to, and don't mind admitting it. And here is why. If life is special, is human life more than animal life? Or less in the case of the medical/religious viewpoint. We would put an animal "out of its misery" whereas a human in similar state who can and does actually ask to be put out of his misery is denied this final service on the grounds that human life is special, god given, whatever your flavour of religion states, for make no mistake it is the sway of religion that ultimately denies the terminally sick person his only relief. You can never "save life", all you can do is postpone death. Humanists generally have no such bias. As the play says "Whose life is it anyway?".

Anyhow I'm relieved I have your permission to excercise my free will

The point? I'm less sure about that. Giving per se is not the point, as someone said much earlier in this thread the point is making a difference. One hell of a lot of charities actually do not accomplish this.

Free will and knowledge, the cornerstones of Judaic faith. Rock out with your clock out, Brightlight!

Putting human life into the same category as animal life is saying that we are no better than the animals over which we were given dominion. Are we no better than an animal, in your estimation?

And as for killing one's self, that's a personal choice. One that anyone who wants to should be allowed to exercise. What you CANNOT do is ask someone else, who can't or doesn't want to, to do it for you.

i believe in Karma what goes around comes around.. My choice of religion is Wiccan.

I'll get you, my pretty! And your little watch, too!

[Chris V.]

[roflwaffle]

Putting human life into the same category as animal life is saying that we are no better than the animals over which we were given dominion. Are we no better than an animal, in your estimation?

Hrm...

Well, humans are animals, scientifically speaking here.

And, christianity faith believes that we were given dominion over animals, but do other faiths across the world all specifically state that?

They very well might, but I personally could not say one way or the other. is it implied, or custom, or specifically stated?

[Posh]

Hrm...

Well, humans are animals, scientifically speaking here.

And, christianity faith believes that we were given dominion over animals, but do other faiths across the world all specifically state that?

They very well might, but I personally could not say one way or the other. is it implied, or custom, or specifically stated?

It's stated. And it's in the three main world religions, but not specifically all.

[roflwaffle]

It's stated. And it's in the three main world religions, but not specifically all.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attitud..._ancient_world


Ok, nevermind, I've really stopped caring at this point.. seems a frivolous argument.

um.. what was the topic of this thread again?

[Yggdrasil]

"+1" meaning you're atheist and so you do charitable things for sake of doing them without expecting an afterlife?

Women are actually less like to be atheist than men, Ygg. I'm curious, when did you come to this thought process.

I have not heard of women being in the minority amongst atheists. My thought process is of no concern to the topic at hand. Since you asked, If I would have to characterize myself as something, I suppose I would be a Logical Positivist. Please do not take my agreeing with someone as being of the same school of thought.

[roflwaffle]

Atheism is something that is proven to be more prevalent the more educated someone is

Women are actually less like to be atheist than men

...

[Posh]

I have not heard of women being in the minority amongst atheists. My thought process is of no concern to the topic at hand. Since you asked, If I would have to characterize myself as something, I suppose I would be a Logical Positivist. Please do not take my agreeing with someone as being of the same school of thought.

I wasn't saying you were, Yggdrasil. But the "+1" kinda looked like you were saying you were. That's why I asked you the question. I got the fact that women are less likely to be atheist in my National Mental Health Association books, Religioustolerance.org and Richarddawkins.net. It's actually a HIGHLY discussed (and highly charged from what I saw in some of my classes) subject that brings up all kinds of ideas like oppression, levels of intelligence, history, etc.

The first things you learn about in sociology and psychology courses is people's thinking and position on basic ideas that govern, or don't govern, people's day-to-day lives. It's what drew me to the whole subject to begin with. That's why I was curious as to how you came to your current conclusions. I personally don't know ANY female atheists but know more male atheists than I'd like to admit.

What encompasses Logical Positivism?

[Kollektor]

Logical Positivism? Bah. Back to Mickey Ds. Absolutely love it. Used to "dine" there far more often than I'll admit. Yes, I felt like Road Kill afterwards. This tradition carried on until I saw "Supersize Me." No more Unhappy Meals.

Atheists just have limited imagination... or resources, or suffer from cognitive dissonance. Religionists are often partisan by birth and consequently brainwashed, and agnostics are sooo clever.

[Yggdrasil]

What encompasses Logical Positivism?

I personally view it rather pragmatically..I can best be described it as a knowledge construct, a philosophy of observation and rational/logic.

[roflwaffle]

Logical Positivism? Bah. Back to Mickey Ds. Absolutely love it. Used to "dine" there far more often than I'll admit. Yes, I felt like Road Kill afterwards. This tradition carried on until I saw "Supersize Me." No more Unhappy Meals.

Atheists just have limited imagination... or resources, or suffer from cognitive dissonance. Religionists are often partisan by birth and consequently brainwashed, and agnostics are sooo clever.

super size me?
hah, i saw another documentary (bit of a mockumentary), about a guy proving that you can loose weight only eating macdonalds,

the guy just didnt wallow in his own self pity for 30 days..

and yea, he did excercise a bit each day...

not saying mc d is good (its not), just that it was an amusing counterpart to the movie mentioned.

both movies were a bit over the top

mc ds... ew.. thats like... 'im on a trip, and i want to keep driving' food... and not really any other acceptable times for that.

[opak]

Agreed. Anything that improves society as a whole is a good thing. The further from the caves and closer to the stars we get, the better.]

Somebody's been reading Plato

[mingus2112]

Say. . .perhaps the atheism/agnosticism/religion discussion can find its own thread? I know I was probably one of the guilty parties for leading down this road. I think there's a lot that can be discussed here (as long as nobody's taking pot shots at one another's beliefs. . .which hasn't happened yet here), but I think it deserves its own thread.

-J

[Brightlight]

Say. . .perhaps the atheism/agnosticism/religion discussion can find its own thread? I know I was probably one of the guilty parties for leading down this road. I think there's a lot that can be discussed here (as long as nobody's taking pot shots at one another's beliefs. . .which hasn't happened yet here), but I think it deserves its own thread.

-J

Unfortunately such a thread gets nowhere and ultimately devolves into hurt feelings and inevitable potshots. Religion is a matter of belief and therefore an attack on religion is a personal attack. Being a card carrying atheist I love arguing about religion, but you can only really do that with other atheists without hurt feelings coming to the fore! Though I did have a serious of lovely arguments, and learned a lot about Islam, with a Moslem friend......

[Jackjo]

Interesting post Posh. I have not read any of it till now.

I believe many people give to say look how good I am. It still does good for the receivers others though. I think charity is great and very necessary. Many organizations would not stay alive without it.

As far charity paying off in heaven I am not so sure. I think the more we do to further expand the kingdom of God will be more of a factor of treasure in heaven.

I think some men steer towards atheism because we don't want anyone or anything to have dominion over our lives or to admit that we are created beings. We want to be self made chest thumping Alpha males who have complete control over everything in our little world. Many men think to believe in God is feminine, pansy or somehow a crutch to use in our lives. This of course, is not my veiwpoint just some of my experiences in counseling Christian men over the years.

How is that for dropping the faith portion of this discussion.

Sorry

Atheism is something that is proven to be more prevalent the more educated someone is or thinks they are. I find the exact opposite to be true for me. The more I learn, the more I believe that there is something supremely divine behind it all and the more in awe of G-d I become. Women are actually less like to be atheist than men, Ygg. I'm curious, when did you come to this thought process.



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[Posh]

Unfortunately such a thread gets nowhere and ultimately devolves into hurt feelings and inevitable potshots. Religion is a matter of belief and therefore an attack on religion is a personal attack. Being a card carrying atheist I love arguing about religion, but you can only really do that with other atheists without hurt feelings coming to the fore! Though I did have a serious of lovely arguments, and learned a lot about Islam, with a Moslem friend......

It would be an interesting thread. I think most people here, except for me, are adult enough to handle that conversation in an adult fashion. After a few drinks, maybe not so much. Being card carrying atheist is fine. It seems to me there are more on the board than at first glance too. You would probably be in the majority.

Interesting post Posh. I have not read any of it till now.

I believe many people give to say look how good I am. It still does good for the receivers others though. I think charity is great and very necessary. Many organizations would not stay alive without it.

As far charity paying off in heaven I am not so sure. I think the more we do to further expand the kingdom of God will be more of a factor of treasure in heaven.

I think some men steer towards atheism because we don't want anyone or anything to have dominion over our lives or to admit that we are created beings. We want to be self made chest thumping Alpha males who have complete control over everything in our little world. Many men think to believe in God is feminine, pansy or somehow a crutch to use in our lives. This of course, is not my veiwpoint just some of my experiences in counseling Christian men over the years.

Sorry

Thanks, Jack. Uh, what you base your thoughts about men's feelings about belief in a god, any god, is what I often expounded upon in class and studies of statistical data on religion, particularly in this country. I agree those feelings are what some men experience in regards to faith.

Oddly enough, I think it takes courageous man to believe in something he cannot quantify, especially in this world of wonders we live in now. It's MUCH easier now to deny existence of G-d than say in the Sparta of antiquity. That's interesting and telling.