Endless Love: Marriage dead? Why?

[Emperor Penguin]

I was the one who posted the infamous link to the NoMarriage.com website, and my case is quite enigmatic, to say the least. Last November, my parents celebrated their golden (50th!) anniversary. It was a good for me and my whole family to witness together, as my mother was crying profusely. Ironically, despite coming from a family whose parents have been married for fifty years, my view of marriage is more realistic than idealistic.

Posh may chronicle her parents' thirty-five years of blissful moments when together in holy matrimony. That was wonderful to read, yes, but we need to realize here is that we must first understand the lens through which we are seeing these memorable moments. In fairness, we can account for the divorced men who would be more than willing to share with us their miserable moments of being together with their wives. NoMarriage.com is a misogynist litany of the evils of women, and justifiably so because their inherent messages stem from the pain of direct experience. Just as Posh may cherish the positive experiences while simultaneously looking away from the negative experiences from a 35-year marriage, the men behind NoMarriage.com have every right to ignore those positive experiences and dwell on the negative because, with due respect to these hurt men, their pain from negative experiences discount the positive ones, and their pain is very real. We must not only look at the message, but the messenger as well. Examine the lens through which we are seeing what is projected before us. From which frame of reference are we reading these accounts, and what are the intentions and ideals from each author? As some obsequious and overly-idealistic romantic fools impose their dogma upon us because they cling too zealously to their ideals of marriage, we cannot lose sight of the other side of the coin and heed advice from divorced men whose coffers have been emptied.

Should we go ahead and marry for the sake of marrying just because someone dogmatically asserts the virtues of marriage, or should we be more cautious and self-protective when others warn us of its potential evils? I am more of a moderate, but generally I tend to lean toward the latter because in my experiences I, along with many other men, have witnessed episodes that corroborate with the poignant themes of NoMarriage.com. Make no mistake, men: there are many selfish women out there, as millions of divorced men will attest. Of course, one may use my own argument and say that my own lens should be examined, but I will retort that "money talks and bull**** walks." When a divorced man shares with you his pain of paying $5000/month in spousal support, that pain is very real. The whole NoMarriage.com site is a compilation of rants that readers can feel the pain of failed marriages resonating throughout the website. One of my friends is a successful dentist, but after his divorce he pays $85,000/year to his wife. O.J. Simpson had to pay his ex-wife Nicole over $10,000/month in spousal support, and an alimony payment like that would drive some men to kill their ex-wives.

For better or worse, for richer or poorer, in sickness and in health, for as long as we both shall live....

These are perhaps the most important declarations one will vow during a marriage ceremony, but realize that it is an ideal that can only be achieved through sincere and unselfish intentions as well as mutual respect.

Proceed with caution, guys--and watch your wallets!

The Emperor has spoken.

[Kollektor]

A lot of people are scared of being "alone" and that's a part of being human.

People get touchy about that online dating thing so I'm gonna leave that alone. I have problems with it but there's people that swear by it. So I shrug and say whatever works for you.

Thank you, Dr. Laura!

[$~mLuMaN83~$]

http://www.repgeek.com/showthread.ph...906#post421906

[sixbennetts]

Married for 24 years, and it seems like only yesterday that I got up the nerve to ask her.

I was a ship adrift in a gale, approaching the rocks. She came to me, winded my sails, and continues to pilot my life to calm waters.

[Pugwash]

That's cool. I respect that but can I speak to Mrs. Pugwash for a second? Go get her and bring her to the computer. You there, Mrs. Pugwash? Okay, good. YOU WON'T GET ANY ALIMONY!
Alimony ensures that a man (or woman) continues to make the payments even if he decides to get a newer model. That is all. LOL

Are you still living in the 70s? You don't need to be married to get alimony.

Ps. Gold digger or Poe's Law? You decide.

[stolikat]

Sorry as suckers. Posh is a man.

[Posh]

Thank you, Dr. Laura!

I am a HUGE Dr. Laura fan. I even got a signed copy of Woman Power when she came to Towson with her one-woman show. My parents listened to her all while I was growing up and I listen to her now. At the end day, no matter what, this woman makes sense and is just plain right. That's how I feel. I have some of her books (I DO recommend The Ten Stupid Things Women Do To Mess Up Their Lives and Stop Whining, Start Living, and listen to her via Podcast. The funny thing about this is my mom likes her but can't really say so around certain colleagues because she's a polarizing figure. Likewise with certain ones of my friends. But I know good sense when I hear it and heed her advice. Someday, I will be my kids' mom.

I also got her book The Ten Stupid Things Couples Do To Mess Up Their Relationships. That was an eye opener because I found out I was doing those things and didn't even realize it, sabotaging my own relationship. The things I didn't quite understand when heard her show as a kid, I thoroughly understand now.

As far as people's thoughts on Dr. Laura, some people think women are supposed to be weak, opinionless, inarticulate, stupid, seen and not heard. And if a woman challenges these stereotypes and societal "norms," she risks getting attacked for it. Everytime. Even online.

I was the one who posted the infamous link to the NoMarriage.com website, and my case is quite enigmatic, to say the least. Last November, my parents celebrated their golden (50th!) anniversary. It was a good for me and my whole family to witness together, as my mother was crying profusely. Ironically, despite coming from a family whose parents have been married for fifty years, my view of marriage is more realistic than idealistic.

Posh may chronicle her parents' thirty-five years of blissful moments when together in holy matrimony. That was wonderful to read, yes, but we need to realize here is that we must first understand the lens through which we are seeing these memorable moments. In fairness, we can account for the divorced men who would be more than willing to share with us their miserable moments of being together with their wives. NoMarriage.com is a misogynist litany of the evils of women, and justifiably so because their inherent messages stem from the pain of direct experience. Just as Posh may cherish the positive experiences while simultaneously looking away from the negative experiences from a 35-year marriage, the men behind NoMarriage.com have every right to ignore those positive experiences and dwell on the negative because, with due respect to these hurt men, their pain from negative experiences discount the positive ones, and their pain is very real. We must not only look at the message, but the messenger as well. Examine the lens through which we are seeing what is projected before us. From which frame of reference are we reading these accounts, and what are the intentions and ideals from each author? As some obsequious and overly-idealistic romantic fools impose their dogma upon us because they cling too zealously to their ideals of marriage, we cannot lose sight of the other side of the coin and heed advice from divorced men whose coffers have been emptied.

Should we go ahead and marry for the sake of marrying just because someone dogmatically asserts the virtues of marriage, or should we be more cautious and self-protective when others warn us of its potential evils? I am more of a moderate, but generally I tend to lean toward the latter because in my experiences I, along with many other men, have witnessed episodes that corroborate with the poignant themes of NoMarriage.com. Make no mistake, men: there are many selfish women out there, as millions of divorced men will attest. Of course, one may use my own argument and say that my own lens should be examined, but I will retort that "money talks and bull**** walks." When a divorced man shares with you his pain of paying $5000/month in spousal support, that pain is very real. The whole NoMarriage.com site is a compilation of rants that readers can feel the pain of failed marriages resonating throughout the website. One of my friends is a successful dentist, but after his divorce he pays $85,000/year to his wife. O.J. Simpson had to pay his ex-wife Nicole over $10,000/month in spousal support, and an alimony payment like that would drive some men to kill their ex-wives.

For better or worse, for richer or poorer, in sickness and in health, for as long as we both shall live....

These are perhaps the most important declarations one will vow during a marriage ceremony, but realize that it is an ideal that can only be achieved through sincere and unselfish intentions as well as mutual respect.

Proceed with caution, guys--and watch your wallets!

The Emperor has spoken.

Like I said, I have seen my parents go through things but come through them, together. It's wasn't always blissful. Marriage, like anything, takes some effort. My mom said, "We didn't always LIKE each other, but we always loved each other." That has really stuck in my head. It's really so simple. We don't like people, but there are other things to really consider in equation, like love, respect, shared values, character and all that other stuff that makes a successful relationship really work.

But it's also all about selecting the proper person. People these days, from what I see, do NOT take the time to evaluate the suitability of a person for a long-term relationship.

These guys at No Marriage should read probably read The Ten Stupid Things Men Do To Mess Up Their Lives. If it's packed with half the information in Ten Stupid Things Women Do, most of their problems should be on the way to being solved.

[Pugwash]

Men are from Earth, Women are from earth. Deal with it.

[Posh]

Sorry, Mate. Call me cynical, but cynical I shall remain. Surely in your lifetime you must have seen people write the word with a dash. If religious, surely you must know where this came from. Hell, I'm NOT religious and I do. Maybe it wasn't a dig at religion, but rather at those who believe the name shouldn't be written? I dunno. Anyhoo, back to the regularly scheduled program...

Hey, Cynical, knock it off. He says he didn't honestly know and I believe him. We can't all be perfect, like me.

I'm a certified financial geologist and I didn't know the Black Card was made out of titanium until recently. Do you what that does to my self-esteem? I'm ashamed of this but I'm amongst friends.

Do you know who had to tell me? Luman. You try living with that on a daily basis.

[Kollektor]

Joewatch - you do realize I'm just taking the piss out of you. I've always been a troublemaker. If we can't stir things up once in a while on a watch forum, then what do I really have to live for? My neurosurgeon assures me that it's just the effects of the labotomy combined with years of isolation and electroshock. I recall having this problem back in grade school when I would set my peers alight and then spray them with a fire extinguisher. So my apologies...

[Ximenes]

Joewatch - you do realize I'm just taking the piss out of you. I've always been a troublemaker. If we can't stir things up once in a while on a watch forum, then what do I really have to live for? My neurosurgeon assures me that it's just the effects of the labotomy combined with years of isolation and electroshock. I recall having this problem back in grade school when I would set my peers alight and then spray them with a fire extinguisher. So my apologies...

Koll.. I say, let him burn a while... or we should tag up and I'll take over.. ~xim

P.S... the next GTG will be at your house!.. tell your wife

[mingus2112]

My mom said, "We didn't always LIKE each other, but we always loved each other."

My grandfather always said that about him and my grandmother. When he had all of his heart issues back in the mid '80s, my grandmother never left his side. When my grandmother got cancer and eventually died in the early 90s, HE never left HER side. After her death I really met a different man. I've never seen someone so devastated. Keep in mind that these people knew eachother for about a month before they got married.

When I looked to my parents, I always saw two people without much in common. My mother likes to travel and my father just liked to stay in. My mother loved to play golf and my dad liked to watch TV. My dad just died this past June from Leukemia. It was a year and a half long battle in which my mother had to drive him 80 miles to the hospital 3 to 5 times a week. THAT's love. Sure they could still have that relationship without marriage, but marriage is a statement of that love that they wanted to make.

I've been with my wife since March of 1999 (she was 18 at the time and I was 20) and we just got married this past October. Her sister said it the best in her maid of honor speech when she said: "I've never known two people who can be together for so long and STILL be so excited to see eachother." Sure, we'd have that without marriage, but what an exciting process it was to go through! We had a party with our friends and family. . .honeymoon in Italy. . .she now carries my last name (which she had been practicing writing for years!). It was just an exciting thing to go through. Sure, it's not for everyone, but it certainly hasn't failed.

Perhaps what has to happen is change. 50 years ago people got married without thinking things through and then just stuck through it. Sure, marriage will be hard sometimes, but you can make it easier by being sure you're with the one who you want to be with. My wife and I pretty much grew up together since we got together so young, so we're closer than most.

LAST THING. . .
Why does there always have to be a tangent when god is mentioned? I think Posh did just fine in stating what works for her and even saying "it's not for everyone."

-J

[Brightlight]

The problem with marriage is it is born out of being in love/lust which is a hormone induced state of temporary insanity. If you come out of this six months or a year later and find you actually are friends, like each other, love each other (as opposed to being in love) and are compatible, you've hit the jackpot. Obviously this also applies to couples who live together without getting married. If however you don't basically like each other, you have a real problem. Now I am no great expert in marriage having failed twice (the second continues for the sake of children and financial reasons) but there really was no logic to either time I got married. Had I been fully sane I would not have married the people I did. This is no reflection on either of them but a reflection on the fragility of human relationships and people's ability to choose wisely while under the influence of mind altering substances (for such the scientists agree is what love is). There probably is a lot to be said for the old fashioned long engagement.

Do I regret all these wasted years? You bet I do. One day you suddenly realise you're getting old, life is not a rehearsal and you've screwed it up. Not a nice feeling at all.

[Posh]

The problem with marriage is it is born out of being in love/lust which is a hormone induced state of temporary insanity. If you come out of this six months or a year later and find you actually are friends, like each other, love each other (as opposed to being in love) and are compatible, you've hit the jackpot. Obviously this also applies to couples who live together without getting married. If however you don't basically like each other, you have a real problem. Now I am no great expert in marriage having failed twice (the second continues for the sake of children and financial reasons) but there really was no logic to either time I got married. Had I been fully sane I would not have married the people I did. This is no reflection on either of them but a reflection on the fragility of human relationships and people's ability to choose wisely while under the influence of mind altering substances (for such the scientists agree is what love is). There probably is a lot to be said for the old fashioned long engagement.

Do I regret all these wasted years? You bet I do. One day you suddenly realise you're getting old, life is not a rehearsal and you've screwed it up. Not a nice feeling at all.

Well, engagements never used to be really long. I think that's a more modern occurrence than recent.

You have an old-fashioned marriage otherwise. You got together for love. Now, you stay together for the children and financial reasons. Is it glamorous? No. But you're committed to it; I think that's great, at least. Divorce is DEVASTATING to children, even adult children. Studies show that having unmarried parents does as much damage psychologically as having divorced parents. A former co-worker said the thing you learn after divorce and remarriage is that all you get is new problems. She was husband three but couldn't stand him most times. She said she just learned to deal with it because the problems don't disappear, they just become different. I thought that was hilarious but also sage words.

I remember once my parents thought about divorcing, well before my father's heart attack, and the minute I was told about itI was crying and begging my dad and mom not to do it. They told me first before they told my sister, which I'm glad about because she never knew how close we came to being like so many of our friends with two ridiculous households to be shuttled back and forth from. It was so scary for me. I called every relative in my mother's address book and was crying to them to come and make them work it out. My grandmother said everything would work out and it would be okay; she told me they would never divorce and I didn't believe her. I told her they seemed serious. She said give them time and they would work it out because they had strong roots. Bubbe was right.

Eventually, they realized no one else would want them so they decided to stay together. LOL Seriously though, they worked it out and are stronger than ever.

[swissaddict]

Wow, really black and white options in this poll...

I think marriage suits some very well; the commitment, stability, intimacy, cohabitation, and other elements of marriage are keys to happiness for some people. On the other hand, marriage can also be a frustrating experience of smothering and co-dependence for others... And for some, marriage is simply not practical, or even not of interest.

Bottom line is that marriage is good for some, but not for all. Some are happier in marriage, some are happier without. And the dynamics of healthy and satisfying marriages are varied-- it's silly to think there are strict rules about what a marriage 'should' be like.

If you want to get married -- get married. If you want your marriage to be a certain way -- make it that way. If you don't want to get married -- don't get married. What more is there to discuss?

[narikaa]

Marriage

I allways love the 'oneliner' a friend of mine came up with.........

'Just find someone you absolutely hate and buy them a house - and cut out all those wasted years'


.

[Kollektor]

LOL. Good one, Reg.

[Brightlight]

You have an old-fashioned marriage otherwise. You got together for love. Now, you stay together for the children and financial reasons. Is it glamorous? No. But you're committed to it; I think that's great, at least. Divorce is DEVASTATING to children, even adult children.

Well it's loyal, logical even, but great? Not even hardly

I agree about divorce being devastating for children but there is an argument that says if the parents are constantly arguing and sniping at each other, divorce is kinder in the long run and has a less drastic effect on the children. Kinda like getting a sick dog put to sleep. It's chosing the best of two evils I guess.

But you know when you're not happy in your marriage, even if it's semi comfortable like an old jersey with holes in it, you're not happy. And that eats away at you, particularly as you get older, just as the jersey lets in the cold. (And how's that for rustic down home sagacity!)

I have no problem with marriage per se, just wish there was a better way to ensure compatibility than luuuurve.

[SFA437]

Wow- can't believe I missed this thread somehow.

I've been married 20 years, two months and two days as of right now.

She's been with me through thick and thin. We've been moderately wealthy, dead broke and every step in between. We've lived in basement studio apartments and 400,000 dollar homes. She loved me when I was a college student, an Army Private and a Postal worker. She helped me get to where I am now- without her I would have no direction. She is my eddy in the tempest that is life on this rock.

She has given me the light of my life, my reason for being- my son.

She has been there to help me when I have been shot, stabbed and blown up. She's bathed me, changed bandages and held my hand when various pins, screws etc were pulled out of various appendages.

She's cooked my food, washed my clothes and cleaned my house.

She is my best friend, my lover, my partner in crime, my hero and my soulmate.

All this from some w*ore? I think not.

Marriage is definitely not dead- it is alive and well in my home.

[merkman]

I believe the world is a complicated place. I believe we are all looking for something, but frequently we are all looking for different things.

I've been through several relationships. When I was looking to settle down while working at Boeing with great pay, the young lady I saw was doing triathalons, riding 50 miles for fun, and looking for someone to enjoy those rides with.

I've never been overly motivated by money, despite enjoying vacations and the relaxation they offer. But without money, it becomes very hard to enjoy yourself, meet people, or even go out for dinner.

I actually may have known my soul mate when I was in 2nd grade. We both had blonde hair, we spent nearly every moment together. We talked, we ran, we did what kids do. But when her family moved to North Dakota, her father taking a job back there, I never got a number, there was no e-mail, and I never saw her again.

More often then not as I got older, I didn't know when women were hitting on me. I look back and wonder what the hell I was thinking, but reflect that I wasn't that interested in most of them anyway. And the ones that wanted a quick fling since, well... I wasn't that interested in them, or I'd have hoped for more than just a quick thing.

I just finished watching Pretty Woman for the first time in YEARS. Two people, meeting on the street, and end up finding true love. Does that really happen? Can it? I'd like to think so. I've been a hopeful romantic most of my life. And while I didn't know Louis Vuitton from a Birkin until about a month ago, I guess you *can* teach dogs new tricks...

This dog is happy for those who have met their match, sad for those who haven't, and hopeful all our hopes are just a chance meeting from happening. But we must be positive and hopeful, for to miss our chance because of a bad day... do we really want that to change our whole life???

(And why didn't someone tell Julia Roberts LV is the shiznet, so she could get a bunch of AWESOME luggage while Gere was buying!!!)

[Posh]

I believe the world is a complicated place. I believe we are all looking for something, but frequently we are all looking for different things.

I've been through several relationships. When I was looking to settle down while working at Boeing with great pay, the young lady I saw was doing triathalons, riding 50 miles for fun, and looking for someone to enjoy those rides with.

I've never been overly motivated by money, despite enjoying vacations and the relaxation they offer. But without money, it becomes very hard to enjoy yourself, meet people, or even go out for dinner.

I actually may have known my soul mate when I was in 2nd grade. We both had blonde hair, we spent nearly every moment together. We talked, we ran, we did what kids do. But when her family moved to North Dakota, her father taking a job back there, I never got a number, there was no e-mail, and I never saw her again.

More often then not as I got older, I didn't know when women were hitting on me. I look back and wonder what the hell I was thinking, but reflect that I wasn't that interested in most of them anyway. And the ones that wanted a quick fling since, well... I wasn't that interested in them, or I'd have hoped for more than just a quick thing.

I just finished watching Pretty Woman for the first time in YEARS. Two people, meeting on the street, and end up finding true love. Does that really happen? Can it? I'd like to think so. I've been a hopeful romantic most of my life. And while I didn't know Louis Vuitton from a Birkin until about a month ago, I guess you *can* teach dogs new tricks...

This dog is happy for those who have met their match, sad for those who haven't, and hopeful all our hopes are just a chance meeting from happening. But we must be positive and hopeful, for to miss our chance because of a bad day... do we really want that to change our whole life???

(And why didn't someone tell Julia Roberts LV is the shiznet, so she could get a bunch of AWESOME luggage while Gere was buying!!!)

A man who likes Pretty Woman as a romance?

Okaaaaaay, women who like Pretty Woman I have a problem with ANYWAY; the only thing it does is give hope to hoes. I DO NOT want hoes to have hope. Every ho I know loves this movie. But most of those hoes are still single too. I say most because there seems to be at least a few stupid dudes who think a sl*t is better than having no woman at all, nevermind she's sleeping with men behind your back. And I don't care how smart you think you are, sl*ts are ALWAYS smarter than you. If you never hear another piece of wisdom in your life, take that with you. I learned that from wh*rish friends. Sl*ts are resourceful.

It's a love story?! That woman is a PROSTITUTE. She has sex with ANYBODY for money. A lonely, sad sack millionaire falls in love with her because, hey, who else can you get to throw oranges at your @ss who won't tell due to hooker/trick confidentiality.

[Ximenes]

A man who likes Pretty Woman as a romance?

Okaaaaaay, women who like Pretty Woman I have a problem with ANYWAY; the only thing it does is give hope to hoes. I DO NOT want hoes to have hope. Every ho I know loves this movie. But most of those hoes are still single too. I say most because there seems to be at least a few stupid dudes who think a sl*t is better than having no woman at all, nevermind she's sleeping with men behind your back. And I don't care how smart you think you are, sl*ts are ALWAYS smarter than you. If you never hear another piece of wisdom in your life, take that with you. I learned that from wh*rish friends. Sl*ts are resourceful.

It's a love story?! That woman is a PROSTITUTE. She has sex with ANYBODY for money. A lonely, sad sack millionaire falls in love with her because, hey, who else can you get to throw oranges at your @ss who won't tell due to hooker/trick confidentiality.

I was still fun to watch though...

[merkman]

Forget I posted anything.

[tomhorn]

I am fortunate to have parents that started dating in high school, and have been married for 46 years. Watching their relationship has also helped me form my two 'rules' for marriage.

1) I intend to only do it once.
2) Because of #1, it will take a very special woman to get me down the aisle.

Unregistered said it best ... I also use the "Can I grow old with her?" test. I actually use it long before marriage is even a remote possibility. I use it to decide on whether or not I want to just 'exclusively date' someone.

I've always been a romantic at heart, and I have no problem with making the committment. I have no doubt I will do it sometime, but have no desire to 'settle' just so I can say I've been married.

A man who likes Pretty Woman as a romance?

Okaaaaaay, women who like Pretty Woman I have a problem with ANYWAY; the only thing it does is give hope to hoes.

Have to side with Posh on the whole 'Pretty Woman as a romance' thing. I think it gave a whole generation of "hoes" the impression that all they needed to do was find a rich guy and all their problems would be solved.

Never ceases to amaze me how much attention I get just stepping out of my recently acquired XK8 in front of a club where the line of gold-diggers are waiting to get in ... and it's not that expensive, nor am I Richard Gere ...

[Emperor Penguin]

Guys, let's keep it simple here. If you marry and stay married for fifty years, good for you. If you marry and then divorce, be a man and accept the financial consequences. Let us not draw conclusions from anecdotes, but at the same time we should not be so overly idealistic to the idea of marriage.

There is one undeniable fact about this whole marriage issue: it's a crapshoot.