YGG hit the nail right on the head.
I can kill someone with speed and efficiency using any of the above mentioned items and many more not listed. I am quite skilled in it actually.
If I was armed with anything other than a firearm, I would seriously reconsider my course of action however.
That is why I believe an armed society is a polite society.
Vápnum sínum skala maðr velli á feti ganga framar
því at óvist er at vita nær verðr á vegum úti geirs um þörf guma
- Havamal 38
indeed, so why shall we give those bad hands a "tool" to kill someone on will?
doesn't matter if me, good boy, handle a gun, if someone wants to shoot me dead there is nothing i can do right? (except dodge bullet that is).
So hmm.. i'm still not buying the fact that even if everyone has a gun we will have a "polite" society, i see a bloodbath incoming.
Blobe- look at it this way:Originally Posted by Blobe
I can make a firearm from a piece of steel- I've actually done it. A functioning, serviceable weapon. Making it illegal won't deter me (assuming I am a criminal). Now I have a firearm and nobody else does. I can essentially do with it whatever I wish.
Now lets assume there are other firearms about in the hands of regular citizens. I take pause in using my firearm because someone might engage me. It is not necessary for everyone to own a firearm. Not everyone is suited for carrying a weapon. It is the uncertainty of who might be carrying that gives the criminal pause.
As for a bloodbath, in states that have passed "Right to Carry" laws, violent crime has dropped an average of 38%. Quite the opposite. In fact when criminals were asked what they were the most afraid of the most common answer was being shot by a potential victim. Not the police, not jail, but being met with an armed citizen.
The problem isn't an inanimate object, it is lax enforcement of laws already existing for misuse of a firearm, it is lack of sufficient deterrent effect of prison in the US, a breakdown in societal mores, a culture of immediate gratification and the prevalence of serious narcotics (crack, meth, heroin) that creates the problem.
Last edited by SFA437; 10-11-2008 at 07:55 PM.
Vápnum sínum skala maðr velli á feti ganga framar
því at óvist er at vita nær verðr á vegum úti geirs um þörf guma
- Havamal 38
I'm surrounded by automatic weapons. Literally.
To my right is a MK-19 40mm automatic grenade launcher. In my desk drawer is a Glock 21 .45 ACP. Behind me are 12 HK MP5A3 submachineguns. To my left is an M16A4. If I walk across the yard I can draw the 4 GE 7.62 NATO miniguns out of the armory.
Neither I, nor anyone on my team, have the sudden overwhelming desire to go out and shoot each other because they are around.
This is because we have restraint and understand the consequencs of using them on each other. We've had knock-down, drag-out brawls in the team room while CARRYING weapons but nobody was shot. Why do you think that is?
Vápnum sínum skala maðr velli á feti ganga framar
því at óvist er at vita nær verðr á vegum úti geirs um þörf guma
- Havamal 38
"You can't grow guns, Guns are not addictive, While I agree a black market would always exist its much easier to control when walmart does not sell them at discount prices. Lets face it most of the violent criminals aren't in the upper income brackets, if guns are expensive because they are illegal they will be less pervasive"
I can go out, right now, and get an AK-47 off the street for <$500, that's a completely illegal gun, brought into the country illegally, purchased illegally, and is most likely to be used illegally... and it costs just about the same as a legal one (only the illegal one is fully automatic while most legal AKs have been modified to only be semi-auto)... there's no markup because it's illegal. $500 is "walking around" money for even low level weed dealers, you get up into Coke suppliers, the guys who actually shoot stuff up, $500 is nothing. Making guns illegal isn't going to make it any harder for criminals to get.
I'd like to see a breakdown on the number of crimes involving a gun committed by said gun's registered owner... I'm guessing it would be pretty close to nill.
You would be wrong, Ask any cop, they check who the gun is registered too first and that's usually the killer. Most murders are committed by someone the victim knows well with a legally acquired gun, sucks but true. More restriction = less guns, Less guns = higher prices Its really simple (Supply and Demand) make them illegal and it will go WAY up.
pain-
I swear there's an annex. I used it for a block of instruction I gave right before I came over here. There's like 25 appendicies to the UCR. When I get home in Nov. I'll grab my copy and scan the pages applicable. Might have been the 03 or 04- right before the AWB sunsetted. I am also not saying the attacker was fought off with a firearm- that would fall under justifiable homicide. The simple presentation of the firearm stops a good majority of attacks.
Made a mistake on the individual who discredited the study. Worked for the CDC and his last name was Lott- first name is wrong.
How is someone wanting to whack you with a bat fantasy? I was a cop for 13 years- seen people beaten with all sorts of blunt instruments.
As for Colin being a psycho- yes he was. As were the deviants who engaged in school shootings and God help Postal WorkersThe point is gun control works as well as drug control. A criminal by definition does not obey laws. Why would one more law suddenly turn him/her into a model citizen?
I used the term "Assault Weapon" not firearm. I am differentiating between a handgun and the most demonized of inanimate objects- something that looks like something the military uses. If you really wanted "common sense" gun control- forget 1500 dollar rifles and get rid of the Lorcin/Jennings/Cobray piece of dogs**t ones made of pot metal that sell for 78 bucks. I've never taken an M1-A off a suspect but I have SCADS of these cheap POSs.
And no you can't grow guns, but given a machine shop and some bar stock I can manufacture a fully functioning rifle, handgun or shotgun. They are quite simple things mechanically. You can confiscate every firearm made by every manufacturer and I could still be armed. If I can do it, someone with a deviant, criminal mind surely could.
I was an officer in North Carolina after I separated from active duty Army. The views of officers outside major urban areas typically differ radically from those who live in cities. They are products of the environment. If virtually an entire population is told over and over that gun control works or guns are bad they will believe it. I personally do not imbue steel with a human trait. The firearm is neutral- the wielder is good or evil.
For the record: I do enjoy firearms. I build them, modify them and am a licensed gunsmith. I also make my living carrying a firearm. My point of view is as biased as anyone else's. I'm just here for the argument
Vápnum sínum skala maðr velli á feti ganga framar
því at óvist er at vita nær verðr á vegum úti geirs um þörf guma
- Havamal 38
I love a good argument myself :-)pain-
I swear there's an annex. I used it for a block of instruction I gave right before I came over here. There's like 25 appendicies to the UCR. When I get home in Nov. I'll grab my copy and scan the pages applicable. Might have been the 03 or 04- right before the AWB sunsetted. I am also not saying the attacker was fought off with a firearm- that would fall under justifiable homicide. The simple presentation of the firearm stops a good majority of attacks.
Not my in my experience, I bring it up or take it out, I usually end up using it but I keep things in check as long as I can so your results may vary
Made a mistake on the individual who discredited the study. Worked for the CDC and his last name was Lott- first name is wrong.
How is someone wanting to whack you with a bat fantasy? I was a cop for 13 years- seen people beaten with all sorts of blunt instruments.
everyone loves me, that's why its a fantasy :-), or maybe I am in the 10% that can take you :-P, OK I will stick with the love thing
As for Colin being a psycho- yes he was. As were the deviants who engaged in school shootings and God help Postal Workers
I used the term "Assault Weapon" not firearm. I am differentiating between a handgun and the most demonized of inanimate objects- something that looks like something the military uses. If you really wanted "common sense" gun control- forget 1500 dollar rifles and get rid of the Lorcin/Jennings/Cobray piece of dogs**t ones made of pot metal that sell for 78 bucks. I've never taken an M1-A off a suspect but I have SCADS of these cheap POSs.
Agreed, make them all illegal or don't, saying just assault rifles are banned then coming up with a stupid definition of assault rifle that fills some politicians goals is not helpful its stupid and wasteful.
And no you can't grow guns, but given a machine shop and some bar stock I can manufacture a fully functioning rifle, handgun or shotgun. They are quite simple things mechanically. You can confiscate every firearm made by every manufacturer and I could still be armed. If I can do it, someone with a deviant, criminal mind surely could.
Oh come on, homemade zip guns? with unhardened unrifled barrels? what about firing pins? sights? you know its not that easy, be realistic, even a good machinist could only make something that might fire once or might take your hand off.
I was an officer in North Carolina after I separated from active duty Army. The views of officers outside major urban areas typically differ radically from those who live in cities. They are products of the environment. If virtually an entire population is told over and over that gun control works or guns are bad they will believe it. I personally do not imbue steel with a human trait. The firearm is neutral- the wielder is good or evil.
Agreed,I just don't want to give evil easy access to tools
For the record: I do enjoy firearms. I build them, modify them and am a licensed gunsmith. I also make my living carrying a firearm. My point of view is as biased as anyone else's. I'm just here for the argument
I hear you, I made a living carrying small arms as well, I directed and taught close air support, we carried small arms and called in large ones. but that's there, this is here, I don't want here to ever be like there.
Well! Posh really drew out all the gun freaks from the woodwork. In the immortal words of Corporal Jones from Dad's Army "They don't like it up them". I just wonder how many of these good folks with their pistols, their rifles and their 600 rounds a minute automatics have actually ever fired at and been fired at in earnest (SFA, you I know have, I don't include you in this). How many have actually killed another human being, and know how that feels. You know why we call the people we've killed, huns, gooks, terrs, muja hedeen? Because it dehumanises them and lets us, hopefully, live with ourselves when we snuff them out. They do the same I'm sure. That, good people, is what guns are for, to kill people. You can justify them all you like, but you see I, and no doubt others among us, know what they are really capable of. You can say it's people and not guns that kill people. So I can say in response, wake up and smell the coffee, you are so steeped in gun culture you cannot tell the difference. I have had experience of both and have no doubt which I prefer. If I never touch another gun it will be too soon.
Just my two cents worth to a pointless discussion.
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A closed mouth gathers no feet
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Brightlight- I wish it were so.
If I knew, with ABSOLUTE certainty, that neither my family or I would be threatened with death I'd toss em all. I like archery too
Seriously- the problem in the States goes FAR beyond the availability of firearms. It is rooted too far to weed it out. We have gone from a gun culture to a drug culture, a violence culture, a greed culture. Instant gratification and damn the consequences seems to be the rallying cry of today. Heck, even our markets collapsing are symptoms of this.
As much as calling them ragheads or muj or other racially insensitive terms, dehumanizing does not work. Every life I have taken has affected me. I know those who died had families, children- someone who will miss their presence. The ones who brag about killing either never have or are slightly deranged.
Vápnum sínum skala maðr velli á feti ganga framar
því at óvist er at vita nær verðr á vegum úti geirs um þörf guma
- Havamal 38
I was wondering this myself.
It's Bucket!
Yes, of course. Go into warzone with a quiche and a smile. That's what I advocate. Kill them with kindness.So you propose I do patrols through Baghdad armed only with my wits? Surely you jest
Dehumanization of you "enemy" is what basically has to be done in order to take someone's life away from them. I learned this from a former Marine I know.
This friend is a walking, talking country song. He has a house, a dog and Ford truck. He's a Marine and has been to Iraq and Afghanistan. We were having dinner at a restaurant in the Inner Harbor over a year ago and were discussing politics, which inevitably comes up because he is a staunch Republican and I am not. He was telling me about his position on the war and then told him mine. After some banter back and forth, I asked him if he had killed anybody while he was over there. He looked me in the eye and said, "If I told you I did, would that change how you felt about me?" I told him plainly that it would but I wasn't sure because of how I felt about him already. And then he said, "Then I'm not going to tell you if I did or didn't because I don't change us." I couldn't say anything back because it brought up so many different scenarios and emotions for me. I guess this says more about me than it does about him. I have my principles and values, most of which he shares but on something as important to me as life, I refuse to compromise my views. It's a very complex issue and I'm still unsure about what answer I wanted to hear from him.
If he did kill anyone, then he would be one of those people I couldn't ever see the same way because I feel like he didn't HAVE to join the military if he had done well in school or started working somewhere. But he didn't have the money, the scores or the ambition to go, which I don't fault him for at all. Before I knew him, he was smokin', tokin' and jokin' and not taking authority too seriously. He continues to tell me he's grown SO much in a such short period of time, which after meeting his friends, I'm inclined to agree because he says he USED to be just like them. He's tremendous intelligence, for being as he put it, "Pennsyltucky white trash," and his enormous amount of pride in himself and his country and his service is refeshing.
If he didn't kill anybody, then it was moot point. We still talk, althought I can't date him, and I still don't know if he did or didn't and I'm actually glad he didn't tell me.
Last edited by Posh; 10-11-2008 at 09:59 PM.
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Flippy McWaffle, which side of the argument are you on or is the beer taking effect?
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Yes, SFA, that's why I said it didn't apply to you. Sadly, I think you're right about your society having gone too far. We haven't yet gone that far in the UK, thank goodness, but we are going that way, thanks to the influences we've imported. But how are we to get out of the spiral?
You're spot on too about dehumanising not working, that's got a lot to do with my feeling the way I do.
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A closed mouth gathers no feet
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As odd as it sounds, considering my job and location, I think the Muslims have it down right. YUP! I said it!
There are quite a few members here who have been to / lived in / served in the Middle East. Concepts such as respect for family, respect for elders and most importantly SHAME have weight and value here. That is what society at large has lost and I do not seeing us getting it back anytime soon if ever.
I've pretty much written off the United States long term. I have property here in Iraq (well Kurdistan, almost another world). There I would have no need for a firearm, as a matter of fact I walk the streets unarmed quite regularly when I am there.
Vápnum sínum skala maðr velli á feti ganga framar
því at óvist er at vita nær verðr á vegum úti geirs um þörf guma
- Havamal 38
Well price has never really been a factor.
A Lorcin .25 that sells for 70 bucks legally sells for 250-300 illegally. For a street level dealer an income of 3000 dollars a week is not uncommon. Yes restriction on firearms will decrease the supply amongst those inclined to obey the law. Criminals by definition do not.
As far as I know, crack cocaine is illegal. Can you still buy crack cocaine in your county? That is the main fallacy behind gun control- that criminals will suddenly stop in their tracks and not KILL someone because the gun they are using is illegal.
Here's a quick Google- following came from Canada's House of Commons (not sure what that translates into in the US)
“Between 1997 and 2003, 574 homicides were committed with handguns. Among the 31% (176) of homicides in which a handgun was recovered, about three quarters (72%) of the handguns were not registered. About four in five (85%) did not possess a valid FAC of Firearms License. Where ownership of the handgun could be determined by police, the accused owned the handgun in half (49%) of these homicides, compared to 3% in which it was owned by the victim.”
About 50-50 when the handgun was registered.
For CCW holders in NC, last year 2 committed crimes with their handguns. Can't comment on other states.
Vápnum sínum skala maðr velli á feti ganga framar
því at óvist er at vita nær verðr á vegum úti geirs um þörf guma
- Havamal 38
I live in Amsterdam, guns are illegal here. Ofcourse, like in every country where guns are illegal, it is possible to get one. Do I feel unsafe when I walk the streets, knowing I don't have a gun and someone around me, might have one? Nope...
The crime/kill rates here are waaaay less then in the US.. I really believe it is because we are prohibited to carry a gun.
How many times has it been that a kid kills a a lot of other kids/teachers at school in the US in the last 10 years?? I lost count..
I can only compare it to the Netherlands and can only count one.. A boy shot his teacher. Ofcourse, the US is 100 times bigger (if not more) than the country I live in... But still...
Personally, I don't think I would feel much safer knowing everyone around me carries a gun.. Too many crazy people to trust with one..
I know, even a pen or a paperclip can kill someone.. And yes, if you are a Myth Buster of SFA you can build your own gun..
But what do I know, I live in a city where weed/hasj is legal and I'm loving it!
www.falfiles.com/forums
Quite a few people there have done it.
www.thehighroad.org
Another place where building of firearms is rather commonplace.
People have been building functional firearms since the 1500's with hand tools. Why would you suggest that someone with a modern machine shop and access to quality steels would be incapable of fabricating a firearm?
Vápnum sínum skala maðr velli á feti ganga framar
því at óvist er at vita nær verðr á vegum úti geirs um þörf guma
- Havamal 38
quite the thread.
i'm not against guns, and i would own one if i lived in a place that made it easy to obtain and carry a firearm.
i am very happy though, that i do live in a place where hand-guns are not common, are not legal to carry, and are much harder to obtain.
at least if i get shot while walking down my street, it will shock the hell out of the entire population in this area.
spekoli- YOU GOT IT BROTHER!
It would SHOCK someone.
We've lost that.
Vápnum sínum skala maðr velli á feti ganga framar
því at óvist er at vita nær verðr á vegum úti geirs um þörf guma
- Havamal 38
I'm enjoying this quite a bit pain- beer's on me in late Nov when I'm stateside! Talking watches is fun too and I've amassed quite a collection over here.
To me, good gun control is Project Exile in Virginia. Do a crime with a gun- 5 years. No parole, no good behavior- 5 years to the day. Kill someone you go for life, and life means until you expire- not 12 years.
I still think Muslims have the right idea- family, respect and shame. Good motivators against evil. Even Salah-al-Din allowed Crusaders to vacate Jerusalem when wanton violence was the norm amongst "civilized" populations.
When I say firearm, I am not talking about a 7.62 rifle, a black powder handgun or longarm makes much more sense. Less pressure plus I can fabricate propellant and shot myself. Barrel fabrication (smoothbore) isn't all that hard- heat treating modern recievers is a cast iron ^&$#@&*!(*%!# but it can be done. All that is avoided with a smokepole.
Vápnum sínum skala maðr velli á feti ganga framar
því at óvist er at vita nær verðr á vegum úti geirs um þörf guma
- Havamal 38
OK, we have an accord then, Legalized black powder smooth bore long rifles, everything else is out! How funny would it be to see gansta rappers doing a drive by with Davey Crocket style muskets
A lot of those children have role models, just ones you wouldn't think are the best; actually, I'm sure their father's value systems are similar to your own. Don't look down on those kids too much because their fathers are more than likely nearby. You're thousands of miles away from your child, and you're away from the most formative years of your child willingly, by choice which is AMAZING to me.
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Posh,
WOW that is harsh, live under an umbrella of freedom provided by people who volunteer to sacrifice for all our collective good and then criticize their parenting. COLD. Wars have never been fought by childless men, most men in the military have children. You can be a good parent and do your duty. Its not all or nothing, being there everyday is great, I have that luxury now and I love it, but I didn't for a while and I don't look down on those who provide me with that luxury now, I respect their sacrifice and offer to help their families. even if you don't agree with the point of the war the guys who sacrifice for what they think is right even if it does make there kids lives tougher deserve respect and compassion not ridicule.
About an hour ago I read post #1. I've caught up.
I respect differing viewpoints.
One of the reasons I enjoy it even if I don't agree with it is that I'm reminded of how great the first amendment is.
We do not have a perfect country by no means, but having lived in several countries and having visited others IMHO we have one of the best ones going.
There are countries in this world that not only would forbid you from speaking your mind, they would give you a first hand view of your argument.
This quote is where you jumped the shark.
What SFA and thousands of others are doing for their families and friends, they are also doing for you.
Freedom is not free.
If your not going to appreciate the gift that these people give you at least try to show some respect.
I had a Sgt. Major tell me once, "The Army comes before your family!"
I disagree. My family is why I served.
"Dream like your going to live forever,
Live like your going to die tomorrow"
James Dean
"Everyday is a gift. Thats why they call it the present!"
Posh- not waffling at all.
He said if he were shot- it would shock his community.
The feeling of shock is lacking when we in the US hear of someone being shot (or stabbed or beaten or raped or robbed).
It shows how far we have fallen as a society as a whole.
My contention is that it isn't the fault of the firearm that there are so many deaths and such violence in the States, but a deeper underlying rot on our collective psyche.
Vápnum sínum skala maðr velli á feti ganga framar
því at óvist er at vita nær verðr á vegum úti geirs um þörf guma
- Havamal 38
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