Me And A Gun

Bright-

I think the reason that Europe has less of a per-capita homicide rate than the US is due to social reasons rather than the availability of firearms.

There are countries absolutely swimming in firearms that have murder rates lower than the US (Macedonia, Albania et. al for example not to mention Finland).

Americans have come to view violence as acceptable, even entertaining. News networks have a saying "If it bleeds, it leads". This corrosion of the normal Western societal response to violence (shock and horror) leads to individuals thinking it is acceptable to kill someone because they have something they want. Couple that with a culture that glorifies greed above all else and instant gratification then add in single parent families with (necessarily) unsupervised children and you get the mess we have in our major cities.

As I've said before, civilian gun ownership is a moot point for me. Does not affect me one way or the other. As a retired law enforcement officer, I may carry any handgun I qualify with anywhere in the United States. Whether or not I choose to do so is something I believe should be MY choice and not someone else's.

If someone wishes to wait 30-45 minutes for police response in a rural county rather than defend themselves against the depradations of some of our more aggressive citizens, have at it. In the US the police have no responsibility to keep the population safe. NONE. We take a report after the crime has been committed. Of course, as officers, the police do their best but remember- when seconds count the police are only minutes away.

Overly simplistic but it still holds true.

I personally dont think that there is a place for guns on Repgeek.
Guns and all other artifacts of war and violence are no laughing matter. Throughout my most violent army service, I carried and used all manner of "guns" during and after the war in Lebanon.
I lost my best friend to "guns".
I am not proud of my knowledge on how to use a "gun".
Once out of service, the first thing I did was get rid of these ugly instruments of death even though many people here still carry guns as civilians..."just in case"..........
I hate "guns" and all they stand for. I educate my children for peace and love of the human being and when the time comes for their compulsory call up to service, I intend them to be out of this place
if we are still in a "war zone".
My family have been through those "passive" wars with Iraq, given two minutes to reach a bomb shelter and smother my children's faces with gas masks and wait to see if the missile flying overhead had our numbers on it. We sat cringed in so called protected rooms whilst the brave American men and women put an end to the Iraqi
regime of terror - and what a mistake that turned out to be.
God bless them.

Repgeek is a place of peace and the mediators should keep it so.
This is such an pleasant place to surf to, and such a great hobby to have. Even though I cant take an active part in buying reps due to stringent customs etc., here, I often visit to read the letters and look at the watches being offered / modded etc., and sit here open mouthed at the wonders that the experts here do to their watches (lume, straps etc.etc.etc.) and the watches being sold back and forth.

I really think that this is not a place for "me and a gun".
Yes, the world is changing but lets keep this haven of sanity eh ?

Wideguy I totally understand your viewpoint, I feel much the same way about guns for much the same sorts of reason.

However, I don't think there is any harm in discussing such things as long as people don't get personal. Don't forget there is nothing forcing anyone into reading such a thread. We all have differing viewpoints and it is interesting to hear and try to understand the viewpoints of others. And despite the strong views held on this subject I think all sides have been careful not to make it personal and unpleasant, which is a nice characteristic of Repgeek, and a great credit to J-C and the mods who step in if any of us get out of line.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Brightlight

....... great credit to J-C and the mods who step in if any of us get out of line.

---

I resemble that remark :lol:

This is one subject that will never be settled. It's emotional for a lot of people rather than rational, especially those who have never carried one. There are a few here who have seen firsthand the damage one can do to another, whether wielded for the good of mankind or for it's destruction.

Only the dead have seen the end of war is as valid today as it was 3000 years ago. As long as man walks the planet, war shall exist. From schoolyard bullies to junkies to nation states; someone will always want what someone else has and will possess the will to attempt to take it by force. No matter if the reason is personal, financial or religiously driven- the pattern shall continue for as long as I live and I imagine well past my grandchildren's lives.

War is not about glory, it is not about honor, it is about getting through it and keeping your mates alive on either side of you. When you are on the two way range, concepts like nationalism, patriotism and glory do not even pass through your mind. What you are thinking about is removing the threat so you and your mates can go home.

Amongst us, the viewpoints differ. I obviously favor having a firearm handy and educating my children on what they can do and the consequences of misuse. I enjoy the mechanics of them and in the case of truly fine weapons (I have a Holland & Holland 500 Nitro Express and a few Merkel drillings) I appreciate the artistry in wood and metal.

Others favor not having one or allowing their children access under any circumstances.

Both viewpoints are equally valid, however I view it as a deeply personal choice akin to abortion, religious choice or sexual preference. I would never deign to tell someone what to do within their homes, what God to pray to (if any) or with their bodies/lives. Quite simply I find that to be the height of arrogance.

I respect Posh for having the gumption to post such a contentious topic. If nothing else it has forced us to think, to examine our beliefs and have a rousing debate at the same time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sfa437

Bright-

I think the reason that Europe has less of a per-capita homicide rate than the US is due to social reasons rather than the availability of firearms.

There are countries absolutely swimming in firearms that have murder rates lower than the US (Macedonia, Albania et. al for example not to mention Finland).

Americans have come to view violence as acceptable, even entertaining. News networks have a saying "If it bleeds, it leads". This corrosion of the normal Western societal response to violence (shock and horror) leads to individuals thinking it is acceptable to kill someone because they have something they want. Couple that with a culture that glorifies greed above all else and instant gratification then add in single parent families with (necessarily) unsupervised children and you get the mess we have in our major cities.

As I've said before, civilian gun ownership is a moot point for me. Does not affect me one way or the other. As a retired law enforcement officer, I may carry any handgun I qualify with anywhere in the United States. Whether or not I choose to do so is something I believe should be MY choice and not someone else's.

If someone wishes to wait 30-45 minutes for police response in a rural county rather than defend themselves against the depradations of some of our more aggressive citizens, have at it. In the US the police have no responsibility to keep the population safe. NONE. We take a report after the crime has been committed. Of course, as officers, the police do their best but remember- when seconds count the police are only minutes away.

Overly simplistic but it still holds true.

---

Yes I'm sure you're right about social factors, particularly given that we have, certainly in the UK, never had a gun culture, but I also think availability must play a part. Finland is a special case in this regard and the number of firearms there have a lot to do with being next door to the USSR during the cold war but the figures I have show the US on 5.9 homicides per 100,000 population and Finland 2.75 (I know this covers more than gun homicides) and Albania slightly below the US at 5.68! Jamaica is top of the list with 46.59. What a holiday destination that must be!

It's not necessarily the owning of guns I'm against, I appreciate that there are sometimes reasons for having them like the coyote or the rural isolation arguments, it's the gun culture aspect where people who do not need guns and probably throughout their lives will never fire them in anger, feel the need to own them nonetheless, that worries me. If I lived in the US I would probably feel the need to own a gun and that in itself worries me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Brightlight

.

In the UK, we had a school shooting back in the 90's at Dunblane, where a nutter went into a school and killed 16 kids and 1 adult before killing himself. I believe these guns were legally owned. Subsequent legislation to control gun ownership was put in place. This may or may not be the reason we have not had a repeat of this occurrence. Yes we do have a minor problem with illegal guns in some of our inner cities, and the shooting of teenagers, but this is largely a certain section of the community (it would be politically incorrect for me to identify them) involved in teenage gang warfare, and the killings are largely confined to this group.

---

Fact being there, was that the Chief of Police decision for the area where this nutter lived was about to have his licence revoked but the costs involved of dragging it through the courts was going to be costly, the Firearms Licensing department were fully aware of this man and his mental state and were pressing for the revocation of his licence, well the Chief of Police soon resigned after Dunblane happened. Gun crime in the UK has risen by 42% since all legally owned handguns were banned.

Dear Cosmic,
Unfortunately there have always been nutters. When I used to live in the UK they were called punks, skinheads or mods. No one really took them too seriously, even in the stands at Highbury or White Hart Lane. They were always looking for agro and trying to be hard with their steel DMs but they werent armed. In those good old days, it was really hard to own your own licensed gun, you needed that expensive license, secure safe hidden from sight at home, the police came round ever so often to check and your arms were only taken out for an airing every so often to drive off to a rifle range in the countryside for practise. Nowadays, unfortunately, arms are available for anyone who has the money. I have heard about the considerable rise in gun crime at home since the ban, but this was to be expected as its the same everywhere, and unfortunately its the nutters who get their hands on them. In the case you mentioned, the chief of police was to blame and should have been taken to court instead of being allowed to resign gracefully....

As per Albania. It is next to impossible to have a license to carry. The only guns a regular person can legally own are shotguns for hunting. If you are cought with a weapon in your person, you're going away for a while.

Yet, I can pick up a chinese made full auto AK-47 or SKS carbine in about 1hr for under $700. A handgun is cheaper and easier, it would take me the time to drink a coffee. Zastavas or TT regularly go 2-300, silencer enhanced one go for around 500.
Exotics like an MP-5 or a sniper rifle etc are available if you know the right ppl and have the cash.

Incidentally, the same can be said for a number of the more "civilized" countries.

Moral of the story: If you think you need a gun, one can be found. Use all the semantics you want on guns being bad or good. They can be found. Regardless that the same result would be achieved with your hands, a rock or a kitchen knife. What are we debating? How easy it is to kill with a gun? It is very easy to bash someones head in with a rock as well and it's a fairly primitive weapon.

So, really, do go on about telling us guns are bad. But start being wary of people with large hands as well. You never know, they might find it easy strangling someone.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sfa437

I resemble that remark :lol:

This is one subject that will never be settled. It's emotional for a lot of people rather than rational, especially those who have never carried one. There are a few here who have seen firsthand the damage one can do to another, whether wielded for the good of mankind or for it's destruction.

Only the dead have seen the end of war is as valid today as it was 3000 years ago. As long as man walks the planet, war shall exist. From schoolyard bullies to junkies to nation states; someone will always want what someone else has and will possess the will to attempt to take it by force. No matter if the reason is personal, financial or religiously driven- the pattern shall continue for as long as I live and I imagine well past my grandchildren's lives.

War is not about glory, it is not about honor, it is about getting through it and keeping your mates alive on either side of you. When you are on the two way range, concepts like nationalism, patriotism and glory do not even pass through your mind. What you are thinking about is removing the threat so you and your mates can go home.

Amongst us, the viewpoints differ. I obviously favor having a firearm handy and educating my children on what they can do and the consequences of misuse. I enjoy the mechanics of them and in the case of truly fine weapons (I have a Holland & Holland 500 Nitro Express and a few Merkel drillings) I appreciate the artistry in wood and metal.

Others favor not having one or allowing their children access under any circumstances.

Both viewpoints are equally valid, however I view it as a deeply personal choice akin to abortion, religious choice or sexual preference. I would never deign to tell someone what to do within their homes, what God to pray to (if any) or with their bodies/lives. Quite simply I find that to be the height of arrogance.

I respect Posh for having the gumption to post such a contentious topic. If nothing else it has forced us to think, to examine our beliefs and have a rousing debate at the same time.

---

Well said.

While I don't agree with the nonsensical "I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6" argument, I do agree with "I'd rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it".

Our cities are cesspools of drugs, gangs and violence (firearm and other). Anyone looking moderately wealthy who makes a wrong turn can find themselves in an area of a city not unlike Port au Prince. We all know what part of town not to go into after dark.

The problem is that those areas are no longer contained and the violence within (the VAST majority of firearms fatalities are felon-on-felon) is spreading. Is the solution to arm the entire population? That is idiotic on it's face. However there are a few common sense steps that can be taken.

Make a prison a penetentiary. Key word there is penetant. Someplace you don't want to go back to. Joe Arapio does a bang-up job in this respect. Cruel and unusual punishment is drawing or an iron maiden, not being "forced" to eat chunky peanut butter when you want creamy or being deprived of HBO.

Make sentencing guidelines that make sense. You kill, you get life. As in until you are dead. Killing means you can no longer be a part of our society. Period. Use a firearm in the commission of a crime- 5 years to the day. Possess an unregistered firearm- 3 years to the day.

Register firearms. I have 0 problem with this. Cars are registered, voters are registered, register firearms. Every last one. All sales through FFL dealers and require the new owner to register prior to it being released. If your gun shows up at a crime scene- you're screwed (unless it was stolen).

If you have 30 guns stolen every 6 months, this needs to be looked into HARD.

Firearms training classes prior to licensing and not some 8 hour POS block of instruction. One that would put you through the wringer with all attendant civil/legal case law and State Law that pertains as well as a stress fire course.

Recurring requalification with every firearm owned to local/State police standards no less than every 6 months.

Legalize narcotics and tax it out the wazoo. Prohibition worked as well as our "War on Drugs". As long as people are here, some will find a way to chemically alter their brain be it thorugh alcohol, drugs or spinning in circles on their front lawn until they see Elvis. Remove the criminal aspect from the narcotics and the gangs go bye-bye. No profit anymore.

I have a few more ideas but I'm popping out to go out amongst em for a bit.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DVS

Have you ever been to Nagasaki or Hiroshima?

I have been there and talked with a lot of survivors of the Nagasaki bombing. Trust me, you would rather have someone slice off your head..

Most of the survivors have been living in constant pain, waiting to die.. They lost everything and everyone..

I've met a man who lost his entire family in one week. Each one of his brothers and sisters died, day after day because of the radiaton.

The effects of the bombing are still present today!!

---

You know what mate, death is never good in any way or form TBH. To top it off, this thread has ran its course way too much, it's come to be so redundant.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Guanaco

You know what mate, death is never good in any way or form TBH. To top it off, this thread has ran its course way too much, it's come to be so redundant.

---

you are right ;) :)

Even if this was posted in the wrong section, it is a good article. Made me think about a few things.

No mater what your stance is in the question of fire arms one thing is certain, sooner or later gun control will be introduced in the USA. In the same way slavery was abolished, votes for women and desegregation of schools. It might not happen tomorow but it will happen, and history will judge those who resist it just as harshly as it now judges those who resisted the major social changes that have shaped Americas history

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by superdave

No mater what your stance is in the question of fire arms one thing is certain, sooner or later gun control will be introduced in the USA. In the same way slavery was abolished, votes for women and desegregation of schools. It might not happen tomorow but it will happen, and history will judge those who resist it just as harshly as it now judges those who resisted the major social changes that have shaped Americas history

---

Very, VERY doubtful. Maybe in California which is full of gay and stupid gun laws.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wideguy

I personally dont think that there is a place for guns on Repgeek.
Guns and all other artifacts of war and violence are no laughing matter. Throughout my most violent army service, I carried and used all manner of "guns" during and after the war in Lebanon.
I lost my best friend to "guns".
I am not proud of my knowledge on how to use a "gun".
Once out of service, the first thing I did was get rid of these ugly instruments of death even though many people here still carry guns as civilians..."just in case"..........
I hate "guns" and all they stand for. I educate my children for peace and love of the human being and when the time comes for their compulsory call up to service, I intend them to be out of this place
if we are still in a "war zone".
My family have been through those "passive" wars with Iraq, given two minutes to reach a bomb shelter and smother my children's faces with gas masks and wait to see if the missile flying overhead had our numbers on it. We sat cringed in so called protected rooms whilst the brave American men and women put an end to the Iraqi
regime of terror - and what a mistake that turned out to be.
God bless them.

Repgeek is a place of peace and the mediators should keep it so.
This is such an pleasant place to surf to, and such a great hobby to have. Even though I cant take an active part in buying reps due to stringent customs etc., here, I often visit to read the letters and look at the watches being offered / modded etc., and sit here open mouthed at the wonders that the experts here do to their watches (lume, straps etc.etc.etc.) and the watches being sold back and forth.

I really think that this is not a place for "me and a gun".
Yes, the world is changing but lets keep this haven of sanity eh ?

---

RG is a forum. If you don't like the Off-Topic section, you should refrain from visiting it. Posh and and others are free to write about controversial topics here - maybe not with impunity, but within reason. It's highly commendable that you educate your children for peace at all cost; I just hope for your sake that Hamas and Hezballah are doing the same with their children. I'm sure that if all of you in Israel just lay down your arms, everything would be hunky dory.

In the words of Woody Allen, "Excuse me, but I have a meeting back on Earth." Doesn't Israel have a particularly low rate of homicide by gun given the particularly high number of citizens that carry arms? I figure that every man and woman in Israel must serve for at least three years of compulsory service... so in essence, nearly everybody in the country is armed at one time or another.

This might actually put the Kaibosh on the premise of some of the anti-gun activists here. In fact, it probably supports what SFA is saying about American culture being the culprit in some way. I dunno... just thinking out loud...

Once again, very well said kollektor!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kollektor

RG is a forum. If you don't like the Off-Topic section, you should refrain from visiting it. Posh and and others are free to write about controversial topics here - maybe not with impunity, but within reason. It's highly commendable that you educate your children for peace at all cost; I just hope for your sake that Hamas and Hezballah are doing the same with their children. I'm sure that if all of you in Israel just lay down your arms, everything would be hunky dory.

In the words of Woody Allen, "Excuse me, but I have a meeting back on Earth." Doesn't Israel have a particularly low rate of homicide by gun given the particularly high number of citizens that carry arms? I figure that every man and woman in Israel must serve for at least three years of compulsory service... so in essence, nearly everybody in the country is armed at one time or another.

This might actually put the Kaibosh on the premise of some of the anti-gun activists here. In fact, it probably supports what SFA is saying about American culture being the culprit in some way. I dunno... just thinking out loud...

---

That's got to be one of the fuzziest bits of logic I've seen in a long time. You could equally have said not eating pork contributed to low homicide rates.

There will never be peace in the middle east until Israel, Hamas, Hesbollah, et al, lay down their arms. Every single conflict of this nature shows that the shooting has to stop and the talking begin. The most recent example being Northern Ireland.

You lost me there at your first paragraph.

I just logged on an must say I am jacked on the cool aid.

However I must draw closer to SFA as the wagons draw in closer.. I will stand with him till the last breath.

I also must say that I am not a veteran but my father was a combat vet in Vietnam (3 tours) and as I grew up he served in Korea two separate times. I was on course to go to West Point and was a ROTC Cadet in a DODDSHS in Germany. I just want posh to understand that military families walk tall!

I had the most respect growing up for my dad when he was overseas (families can not report to Korea as most of you consumerists would never know) and so did all my friends. Yes he was gone but on everyones minds all the time. My friends and their families always were on point at home. He was a good man.

A warrior is the most loved and will never be forgot. SPARTA!!!

Dont **** with us.

Just skimmed this thread, now I'm off to bed.

1. sfa437, thanks for standing on the wall. I'll sleep a little better tonight knowing you're there.

2. You're welcome. (I guarded you when you were a child growing up.)

3. Posh, have you ever protected your country by serving in the military?

Now I have to check my guns in case somebody with a bat or a knife breaks in tonight, and it's off to a deep sleep for this scarred veteran.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by superdave

No mater what your stance is in the question of fire arms one thing is certain, sooner or later gun control will be introduced in the USA. In the same way slavery was abolished, votes for women and desegregation of schools. It might not happen tomorow but it will happen, and history will judge those who resist it just as harshly as it now judges those who resisted the major social changes that have shaped Americas history

---

Ah yes, let's introduce gun control.

Germany 1934-1945: Hitler removes the right of firearm ownership from all ethnic minorities in occupied territory. 15+ million marched defenseless into death camps. Famous Quote: "For the first time in history a civilized nation has a complete system of firearm registration. Our streets shall be safer, our police more effective and the world shall follow our lead into the future."

Russia 1917-1990: Lenin and Stalin (and their successors) remove the right of firearms ownership from the populace. 30+ million marched defenseless to gulags and against walls in occasional purges.

Rwanda 1992-1995: Majority Hutu clans forcibly remove firearms from the minority Tutsis (along with moderate Hutus) and 800,000+ individuals are slaughtered.

China 1930-present: Communist leaders remove the right of firearms ownership from the population. 40+ million unarmed individuals murdered. Famous Quote: "Governmental power arises from the barrel of a gun"

Cambodia 1974-1980: Khmer Rouge leader Pol Pot removes firearms from minority hill tribes and those deemed not politically reliable. 8+ million unarmed individuals killed by the government.

Zimbabwe 2000-present: Majority black rulers remove firearms ownership rights from minority whites. A quiet genocide begins to involve gang rape rape, torture and wholesale slaughter of entire families.

South Africa 1900's-1980's: The ruling white minority prohibits the carriage of arms by the black majority, ensuring the governments racist policies could be enforced without fear of the "kaffirs".

Now you're telling me you trust the United States Government to do what is right? Anyone check the Who's Afraid of Palin and the other threads bashing both out current leadership and potential candidates?? Which way is it- you trust the government to take care of you or you think the government will sc*ew you? Can't have it both ways.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wideguy

I personally dont think that there is a place for guns on Repgeek.
Guns and all other artifacts of war and violence are no laughing matter. Throughout my most violent army service, I carried and used all manner of "guns" during and after the war in Lebanon.
I lost my best friend to "guns".
I am not proud of my knowledge on how to use a "gun".
Once out of service, the first thing I did was get rid of these ugly instruments of death even though many people here still carry guns as civilians..."just in case"..........
I hate "guns" and all they stand for. I educate my children for peace and love of the human being and when the time comes for their compulsory call up to service, I intend them to be out of this place
if we are still in a "war zone".
My family have been through those "passive" wars with Iraq, given two minutes to reach a bomb shelter and smother my children's faces with gas masks and wait to see if the missile flying overhead had our numbers on it. We sat cringed in so called protected rooms whilst the brave American men and women put an end to the Iraqi
regime of terror - and what a mistake that turned out to be.
God bless them.

Repgeek is a place of peace and the mediators should keep it so.
This is such an pleasant place to surf to, and such a great hobby to have. Even though I cant take an active part in buying reps due to stringent customs etc., here, I often visit to read the letters and look at the watches being offered / modded etc., and sit here open mouthed at the wonders that the experts here do to their watches (lume, straps etc.etc.etc.) and the watches being sold back and forth.

I really think that this is not a place for "me and a gun".
Yes, the world is changing but lets keep this haven of sanity eh ?

---

Thank you for this point. I've read every single post in here and I like what you're saying. I'm glad you don't kids to know what you knew.

I'm sorry you don't like the post's theme even if you may agree with the message somehwat. Um, there's a lot of guns on display around here which is why I hardly ever look at any eye candy posts or watch photo posts because I'm afraid I'm going to see a Panerai draped over some firearm with a bottle of cheap Scotch and cigars in the background. And since you never which posts are really going to contain guns, subconscious or overt misogyny or wild speculation, I look at very view posts. I've really learned my lesson.

To that end, I've given people musical hints as to what my posts may be about. If you have some basic music knowledge, mine are easy to avoid. :D

I should hope when you do look these post of watches and guns that you'll quickly admonish them as well. Fair is fair.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TTK

With all undue respect....don't read it then....!

---

I clicked on it because it scrolled across my screen. If I would have known what it was...I wouldn't have read it. I dont have any problem with ANY sort of discussion as long as they are not in the general rep discussion thread, which is (I believe) where this was originally. IF not, then I stand corrected. (My reply showed it as in the Gen Rep Discussion Thread).

No need to get snippy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Blobe

lol with a nick like yours indeed.
don't shoot yourself tho :/

---

Yeah my nick. :) Dont worry, I'll be careful :)