Few Comments - New Member First Impression

[tomhorn]

- Buying a rep;
I found it extremely difficult for a new member to buy on these forums (mostly from m2ms). When I first registered, I did not care much about posting. All I wanted to do is find a good deal, buy it (hopefully as a pre-gen phase), and move on. I did find many interesting/good deals and I need to add that in few cases, I was the first one to contact the seller. I was all ready to proceed with the payment, but it always ended with the seller going with another “more present” buyer. I did not have much problem with any kind of payment, at least, if the seller has some good feedback. All the sellers preferred a VIP member with more posts.

Till now, I don’t quite get that. Every member can purchase a VIP member and increase the post count very easily. I understand that sellers are completely free to select the buyer, but I don’t see how the VIP or the post count can judge the honesty of the buyer. However, I do recognize that the only judging factor, which is very difficult to fake, might be the feedback score. In my case it’s not really relevant, since I don’t want to sell/buy several products; I’m only looking to buy one or two watches for now. This is really frustrating some times, especially when wasting a very good deal with no good reason. I somehow got hopeless at the end.

Here is the reality of this. Since you meant no disrespect in your post, please take this the same way.

Being first means nothing to most sellers, especially the higher priced the item is. A seller is blindly sending a product to someone they have never met, and in most cases an item that violates a law or copyright. There is a lot of trust involved, especially when a buyer has so many easy ways to get out of the deal. Most sellers have a particular pecking order when selling, sometimes spelled out, and sometimes unwritten. Mine looks something like this: 1) Friends on the site. 2) People I have done business with before. 3) Members whose posts I have found helpful, and/or are recognizable because they've been around for awhile. 4) People I think I can trust, either because of feedback, the quality of posts, or because someone I know has had a good transaction with them. 5) VIP members with none of the above, because at least they are supporting the forum. 6) Everyone else, except; 6) People that have had deals go bad, are asking ridiculous questions about watches for sale, or in general have shown that they aren't good members. How far I deviate from the list depends on the item, and/or how much it's listed for. I would be more likely to sell something to a new member that I didn't care about losing, or the price was low, than I would a $1,500 franken. If that offends you (or anyone else), I'm sorry.

Yes, people can choose who they want to do business with, and the main criteria is always "Who can I trust?" Unfortunately, this also means some good people (who can be trusted) don't get a piece they want because the seller has nothing to go on. This is especially true when dealing with expensive frankens. Put a seller's cap on and your perspective will change. The seller wants a deal to go smoothly, and wants the buyer to be happy. There are way too many posts from unrealistic buyers who try to blow things up when they perceive a deal, or a product they received doesn't turn out the way they "imagined" it would. Most of the time those are inexperienced members, hence the caution that many sellers use when dealing with them.

- Prices;
Personally, I was interested in buying a franken vintage rolex (still looking btw). Though my budget is flexible, but I will never spend 2-2.5k for a rep that has a 4-5k gen price. I understand that the gen parts are pricey and hard to get, but personally I would never do it. For me, 1/5 ratio would do it.

I don’t understand how rep watches maintain their value, or even in some cases they are actually appreciating. Vintage gens are representatives of an era, they have an interesting history, and become more unique over time, they are technically and aesthetically very fascinating. I will never see a rep as a “rare” item or understand how its value can increase.

I really don’t appreciate how many members expect to get the full price/cost back of their investment (Regardless whether it is a C&R or an independent project). They even include the shipping cost of the separate parts. It is a used product that has a limited lifetime. You should at least deduct a representative amount of your usage of the latter. In some cases, I really don’t trust the cost breakdown as I think that the member is trying to get a higher price than the original investment. He has all the right to do this, but personally I really don’t appreciate it.

This is a common error in perception from inexperienced members. Trying to treat a high value franken like an off the shelf rep. They aren't.

The only thing I can say on this is build a franken from the ground up yourself, and see if you still feel this way. Especially one with parts that are nearly impossible to find. Try digging up gen dials, hands, movements, or even vintage rep parts that aren't still available. If you can't put things together yourself, try finding a watchsmith to build it for you. Try waiting years to find just the right part, and months to get it built and/or serviced. Your attitude will change once you've put several hundred hours of your own time into a build. They aren't off the shelf pieces you can call up any TD and order, and they aren't used products with a limited lifetime like a Canal Street rep. Think of them as a bespoke suit and not something you picked up at Men's Warehouse.

Also, you seem to be missing that the reality is that some frankens actually are more rare than their gen counterparts. You might find that hard to believe, but depending on the parts used, they might be. It's not difficult for certain reps to go up in price when the parts used to build them just aren't available anymore. For example, I waited a long time for a used old-school MBW hollow link 93150 bracelet to come up for sale, and I haven't recalled seeing another one for sale since I bought it over a year ago. I could easily find a gen 93150 in 15 minutes today. Granted the price would be a lot higher, but it could be found easily. Good luck finding things like a Little Hero PAM111 dial, or an Eddie Lee IWC 3717 case. Even more common things like the WM9 LV Sub (or TC's version) get scarce when they go out of production. Used or not, it affects the sale price. Some pieces depreciate quickly, some hold their value well. My DateJust franken is worth more now than the sum what I actually paid for the parts, because I shopped well when buying at the time, and the prices of the parts have gone up since I bought them.

As for what to spend on a franken (or regular rep), well, everyone has their own gen/rep ratio. Sometimes it's actually about money, and sometimes its about the build. I agree in that in some cases people over-build their frankens, and on those the prices can get out of control from a sale standpoint. Other people do a nice job of hitting the sweet spot on a build. Keep in mind, most of us that build frankens aren't doing so to sell them. Initially they are heirloom-type pieces, but something comes up (life happens, or another build tickles our fancy) that forces the sale. We built what we wanted, and intended to keep them forever. Sometimes that means throwing in an over-priced part, or taking it to that next level that wasn't really necessary. Just because you can't appreciate it, doesn't mean there isn't someone else out there who does. Because parts are sometimes nearly impossible to find, it's absolutely reasonable for people to even charge more than what they have into a build, although the forum does frown on profiteering. Bottom line is the free market is a beautiful thing. A watch will sell when it's perceived value is in line with what it's sale price is. When people have overpriced something, it won't sell.

- Comments on the sales posts;
As a new member, having very basic experience, I tend to read and value the other experienced members’ comments on the different sales posts. I don’t understand why 90% of the comments are actual useless compliments of the product offered. One week ago, I was seriously interested in a 1.5K franken, going through the various comments I thought it was a really good deal. Reading many comments like “Very gen-like!”, “Best rep out there”, “Wish I had the money”, “Wonder why it’s still here”, “I do own the gen, it’s 99% real!!”

Surely, when buying a 1.5k rep, I would not depend solely on the comments, so I went and got every single high-res photo I can get for the gen to compare it accordingly. I also got information about the maker of the rep and all the details about the separate parts/mods. I even traced the shape and the profile on Autocad and compared the exact details/thickness/dimensions/proportions of the watch. It was super-duper way off the gen.

I now see the comments as a chain-reaction, 90% of the times are compliments of the seller or the product, and very rare cases they are purely negative comments, when personally I don’t see the exact reason behind them.

Don't get me wrong, it's great that you are doing research, but if you are going so far as to draw stuff out on Auto-Cad, just stop now. Save your money and buy a gen. Even the best franken build is only going to be as good as it's parts. It goes without saying that the more gen parts the better, but even OEM's have variances in their products. Look at vintage Rolex pieces. Two watches of the same model can look vastly different because even Rolex has variances in parts used. If someone goes and buys every genuine part for a build (so it's perfect in your eyes) you are going to complain about how much it is. You can't have it both ways (perfect, and cheap). It's all about minimizing flaws, and even then, something you think is a flaw, someone else will not.

What you need to do with sales post comments is consider the source and the comment itself. If LHOOQ says someone's 1016 build is good, it is. If Nanuq says a vintage Sub is good, it is. If Valty says a Daytona build is good, it is. If Ubi says pretty much anything is good, it is. The list goes on. If you spend enough time around the forums, you will know who the experts are on various builds. Use those comments and ignore the fluff. Unfortunately some members use the "nice build" comments to boost their post counts.