Creation of "Sales section helpers"

Due to the increased load being put on admins and moderators, and because of the latest rash of scams/misrepresentations being discussed, may I suggest that the admins assign "sales section helper" status to some members. These members would have no official powers, and would only do the following:

- send PMs to admins/mods for posts that violate sales rules
- warn about missing tagged pics
- suggest posting better and clearer pics
- ask for more details, when they feel it is pertinent to full disclosure (maybe even "name the damned dealer!")
- clarify/verify certain aspects of the sale (e.g. is that really a Swiss movement, definitely not E.L. case, etc.)

And anything else you think maybe helpful.

Remember these members would not need any special privileges, and actually shouldn't have any - because they are just there to help. Any editing, moving, deleting or warnings should still be done by admins/mods.

When a mod or admin receives a PM from one of these "helpers" they will know to give it priority, as they've probably already done a lot of things the mod/admin would have done. This will cut down the workload on staff, and make the enforcement of rules more efficient, while ensuring that sales posts are not misleading and contain all info needed for someone to make an informed purchasing decision.

What do you think? And feel free (as if you wouldn't) to post some additional duties you believe may be useful.



NOTE: Please try not to derail this thread into a discussion of a particular scam or other method to prevent them.

I second that. I believe this will help to cut down on undisclosed issues with the watches.

The sellers/buyers would also be aware of the designated sales helpers and any issues raised should be addressed otherwise the mod/admins would be involved and the thread even nuked.

This is probably a better alternative to summarily nuking the thread and gives the seller the opportunity to address the issues.

It will also help buyers as many many not be aware of issues that should be disclosed.

I just want to re-iterate that these helpers are only to make the sales posts more informative, to quickly flag suspect sales, and to take a load off the admins/mods. This will also help bring any suspect sales threads to the attention of admins a lot faster.

Can't members already do this anyway without being assigned?

Agreed. These guys should be be blamed for "calling out" pieces as well

*ALL* members have been deputized to be sales section helpers. :)

When a member sees a thread that "just aint right", he can PM whichever moderator(s) are on-line at the moment the member sees the possible problem. :)

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Originally Posted by gazumi

Can't members already do this anyway without being assigned?

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YES!!! Here's my main man with the master plan!

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Originally Posted by mattusss

YES!!! Here's my main man with the master plan!

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I'm sorry, I was going under the assumption that you received a ton of PMs already and it may help to be able to identify ones which may contain vetted information and therefore cut down on your workload. You have to realize, I'm going on the assumption here that admins/mods are quite busy as it is, and could use help. If you actually do have a lot of time on their hands, then you are right, no need for this at all.

Also having someone who has been designated by admins, will carry a little more weight than just any member posting. Eventually they may be given more powers, but in the short term it is not required.

so should we have guidelines on what's considered ok to be discussed (like a non disclosure of an F caseback on a G PAM) and what's not (complaining about a non issue with a specific model - 10 position on the DSSD v5 bezel)?

We need a line of what's considered kosher on thread comments and what's thread crapping.

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Originally Posted by txcollector

so should we have guidelines on what's considered ok to be discussed (like a non disclosure of an F caseback on a G PAM) and what's not (complaining about a non issue with a specific model - 10 position on the DSSD v5 bezel)?

We need a line of what's considered kosher on thread comments and what's thread crapping.

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This is why not just any member would be assigned the duties. One who has shown to "thread crap" in the past, and doesn't have a good idea of what is acceptable is obviously not a good candidate for becoming an assigned "helper". Kind of the whole point of it being assigned by the admins/mods and not just having every member being a "helper", eh matt.

Guys, i will reiterate something, once again.
In light of recent happenings,we are currently working on a new set of sales guidelines and requirements.
While all suggestions are accepted and considered,at the moment we want to first work on the new and improved rules.
Please, feel free to contact any of us if you see the need ,as Matt stated previously and remember......Report a thread or a post if you think it needs our attention.
We appreciate the help,always.

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Originally Posted by Drhulee

I'm sorry, I was going under the assumption that you received a ton of PMs already and it may help to be able to identify ones which may contain vetted information and therefore cut down on your workload. You have to realize, I'm going on the assumption here that admins/mods are quite busy as it is, and could use help. If you actually do have a lot of time on their hands, then you are right, no need for this at all.

Also having someone who has been designated by admins, will carry a little more weight than just any member posting. Eventually they may be given more powers, but in the short term it is not required.

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Drh -- It's not that moderators are "busy"; the thing is moderators can't read every single thread/post made on repgeek. Each moderator has his own "favorite" forums in which he reads just about every thread/post, but there are probably some threads/posts that are never read by moderators. There aren't any "assigned" subforums that moderators are relegated to "police".

The problem of policing all of repgeek is this -- louisruby is in Australia, and narikaa is in the UK, but I believe the rest of the repgeek moderator team is in the USA. This means that between about midnight and 9am USA east coast time, louisruby is probably the only moderator online. From 9am to midnight USA east coast time, various moderators are on repgeek.

Also, all of the moderators are geeks, so we're looking at our favorite forums and reading/posting as regular members, too. Each moderator has his own "way of moderating", so not everyone is on repgeek "policing" while he's on the site. I cruise the sales sections at least once a day and read my PMs, which can number in the 20s each day, and also do my "regeek moderator" duty by reading non-Panerai related threads.

It's just a much more efficient way of policing ourselves if the membership PMs a moderator, lists a link to a "fishy" thread, regardless of what section the thread is in, and states why the moderator should look into the thread. :)

One more thing, I just read a post by QuickBrick mentioning that people should just hit the "report post" button. Well, being someone who hasn't really participated in any forums, it took me a while to locate that button (which I never knew existed). Perhaps this could be added to the rules with a pic showing where it actually is :cheesy:

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Originally Posted by mattusss

Drh -- It's not that moderators are "busy"; the thing is moderators can't read every single thread/post made on repgeek. Each moderator has his own "favorite" forums in which he reads just about every thread/post, but there are probably some threads/posts that are never read by moderators. There aren't any "assigned" subforums that moderators are relegated to "police".

The problem of policing all of repgeek is this -- louisruby is in Australia, and narikaa is in the UK, but I believe the rest of the repgeek moderator team is in the USA. This means that between about midnight and 9am USA east coast time, louisruby is probably the only moderator online. From 9am to midnight USA east coast time, various moderators are on repgeek.

Also, all of the moderators are geeks, so we're looking at our favorite forums and reading/posting as regular members, too. Each moderator has his own "way of moderating", so not everyone is on repgeek "policing" while he's on the site. I cruise the sales sections at least once a day and read my PMs, which can number in the 20s each day, and also do my "regeek moderator" duty by reading non-Panerai related threads.

It's just a much more efficient way of policing ourselves if the membership PMs a moderator, lists a link to a "fishy" thread, regardless of what section the thread is in, and states why the moderator should look into the thread. :)

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Mattuss, you've just provided a very good reason to implement my suggestion, and I'm surprised you haven't realized it. Please think about it for a moment - maybe re-read my suggestion.

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Originally Posted by txcollector

so should we have guidelines on what's considered ok to be discussed (like a non disclosure of an F caseback on a G PAM) and what's not (complaining about a non issue with a specific model - 10 position on the DSSD v5 bezel)?

We need a line of what's considered kosher on thread comments and what's thread crapping.

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Seeing something that is not close to genuine specifications, such as an E caseback on a F model Panerai, isn't a "I think the seller is a scammer" type of post or PM a member should consider. Not every replica listed for sale is going to be a $1,500 replica, and therefore, the shortcomings of a watch should not be discussed, unless the seller advertises it as being "perfect".

What kind of posts/threads should a member PM a moderator about? Something like this...

Member "fartman" joined this month, you saw him post his first comment yesterday, and today, you see his post count is 348. And then you see that he has listed 3 watches for sale. This is something you should report to a moderator.

This is an instance where you shouldn't PM a moderator...

Member "queefbird" joined this month, you haven't noticed him being a post whore, his previous posts are more than "nice watch", and he lists one watch for sale, but the watch has a sh!tty crown guard.

In the last example, if there's nothing that makes you think he is attempting to sell the watch as "the best PAM available" or that he has artificially boosted his post count, and his asking price is in line with what the watch is worth, leave the thread alone. If you feel compelled, PM him and tell him his CG is the sh!ttiest thing you've ever seen.

What we're looking for is for your help in identifying SCAMS, fellas.

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Originally Posted by Drhulee

Mattuss, you've just provided a very good reason to implement my suggestion, and I'm surprised you haven't realized it. Please think about it for a moment - maybe re-read my suggestion.

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But why does there need to be a "helper" assignation? I think if members PM moderators about "fishy" sales threads or "fishy" activity by a member, the "fishy" situation will be addressed. :)

I spend a lot of time in Off Topic and browsing Breitling, Panerai, Vintage and Omega.

You'll never see me in Rolex :lol:

The point being if you see people going postal, hinky sales threads, making personal attacks or being insulting (without adding a :p or :D afterwards) let us know via PM.

New sales rules are forthcoming and they will be considerably more restrictive in order to protect our membership but the whole lot of you are needed to assist us in nabbing the bad guys.

You're the concerned citizens calling the cops and keeping an eye on things until we show up. Your help is ALWAYS appreciated and TBH I'd rather have 20 PMs that turn out to be nothing than not get one and have it turn into silversx.

Also in addition to hitting "Report Post" kick out a PM to one of us- sometimes we'll catch a PM prior to finding out about a reported post :D

I'd personally like to welcome fartman and queefbird to RG.

:)

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Originally Posted by unregistered

Agreed. These guys should be be blamed for "calling out" pieces as well

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??? I think you meant "should NOT be" :) Which is another reason why not just any member will do.

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Originally Posted by mattusss

But why does there need to be a "helper" assignation? I think if members PM moderators about "fishy" sales threads or "fishy" activity by a member, the "fishy" situation will be addressed. :)

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Because the poster of the sales thread will then be aware that his thread may be under scrutiny. And a member will more likely respond to someone with some kind of assigned authority. Plus it give the post a little more weight. Plus the designated helper won't be intimidated by any "thread crapper" accusations. Plus it gives the mod and idea of what a post is about just by recognizing the name (sorry I didn't realize you don't get that many PMs, I often get 20 or more, and I hardly ever sell anything :D). Plus, plus, plus. Sorry, I'm off for a bit.

A new sales sticky has been made here:

http://repgeek.com/showthread.php?t=94391

No one is able to post in the thread, but please PM me with information you think would be helpful.

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Originally Posted by Drhulee

Because the poster of the sales thread will then be aware that his thread may be under scrutiny. And a member will more likely respond to someone with some kind of assigned authority. Plus it give the post a little more weight. Plus the designated helper won't be intimidated by any "thread crapper" accusations. Plus it gives the mod and idea of what a post is about just by recognizing the name (sorry I didn't realize you don't get that many PMs, I often get 20 or more, and I hardly ever sell anything :D). Plus, plus, plus. Sorry, I'm off for a bit.

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But by *any* member PM'ing a moderator about a "fishy" sales thread, it will be scrutinized. :)

I don't ignore PMs, and I doubt other moderators do, so *any* PM advising of a possible scam sales thread will be vetted thoroughly.

When I get a PM about a possible scam sales thread, I review the seller's posting history, IP address, previous sales (if any), and it takes less than 2 minutes. I receive PMs immediately, so I read them almost instantaneously.

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Originally Posted by mattusss

But by *any* member PM'ing a moderator about a "fishy" sales thread, it will be scrutinized. :)

I don't ignore PMs, and I doubt other moderators do, so *any* PM advising of a possible scam sales thread will be vetted thoroughly.

When I get a PM about a possible scam sales thread, I review the seller's posting history, IP address, previous sales (if any), and it takes less than 2 minutes. I receive PMs immediately, so I read them almost instantaneously.

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My mistake then, I really was under the impression that moderators and admins received hundreds of PMs every few hours. And since it often takes me a while to read, review, respond, etc. to the 20 or so I often get, I believed this to be a time saver and quite useful for you guys.

However, I should point out that the helpers are not just there for finding scams, but also there to keep the seller honest and to cut down on poorly listed threads, in which the watch may have a problem that is not obvious to newer members. Which is another reason the status is assigned and not just every member would be one.

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Originally Posted by mattusss

Seeing something that is not close to genuine specifications, such as an E caseback on a F model Panerai, isn't a "I think the seller is a scammer" type of post or PM a member should consider. Not every replica listed for sale is going to be a $1,500 replica, and therefore, the shortcomings of a watch should not be discussed, unless the seller advertises it as being "perfect".

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That's a gray area that I'd like some clarification (maybe a few use cases on the guidelines)

If somebody lists an ultimate and you notice the caseback, case, CG, etc. are not ultimate do you call it?

Or if they are selling a $200 rep and asking $350 with clever marketing?

Or when somebody asks a question about lume, or movement and the seller is evasive or untruthful with the answer?

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Originally Posted by txcollector

That's a gray area that I'd like some clarification (maybe a few use cases on the guidelines)

If somebody lists an ultimate and you notice the caseback, case, CG, etc. are not ultimate do you call it?

Or if they are selling a $200 rep and asking $350 with clever marketing?

Or when somebody asks a question about lume, or movement and the seller is evasive or untruthful with the answer?

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Exactly, they're still scamming just at a different level, and probably justifying it to themselves in their own mind. When someone starts to say "well the buyer should have known", that is a sure sign of someone more than willing to try to pull something over and the trying to make it seem a "small thing" or maybe laugh about it. Someone like this may eventually try to pull off a much bigger scam, and won't care if you're his brother, mother or grand mother.

And the above described "helpers" will help sort out the ones who've simply made a mistake from the ones trying to pull something on an unsuspecting member.

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Originally Posted by txcollector

That's a gray area that I'd like some clarification (maybe a few use cases on the guidelines)

If somebody lists an ultimate and you notice the caseback, case, CG, etc. are not ultimate do you call it?

Or if they are selling a $200 rep and asking $350 with clever marketing?

Or when somebody asks a question about lume, or movement and the seller is evasive or untruthful with the answer?

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"Ultimate" means very little. Various dealers call various watches various adjectives.

I do think there us a huge proliferation of calling something an Eddie Lee version of a watch when it like wasn't any different than the cartel. (on some models) Hard to prove though. :D

Fully modded is clearly a buzz phrase that gets thrown out too much.

Alright mattusss, now I'm just plain confused. I just read this post of yours, explaining why you can't be everywhere all the time, and couldn't help thinking "Wow, wouldn't it be nice if you had a few members who could act on your behalf and give you a heads up for anything you may have missed?" And who felt that this was actually something they should be doing, as they've been assigned that responsibility.

Sure, it would be great if all members did the above. And you may even get a short spurt where a lot of members do, but after awhile it will die down, and things will return to the way they had been before. But when someone is given a "status/job" they feel inclined to follow-up on it, and not simply make a mental note.

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Originally Posted by mattusss

You answered your own question, brother. ;)

There are about 10 moderators for over 25,000 members. You do that math and tell me where we can be all the time.

You, the membership must act as our eyes and ears, and then report this in the Off-Topic subforum, Member/Dealer Review subforum, and guess what else...? How about PM'ing a moderator so that the moderator team can be aware of this? :munch:

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I'm at a loss, Drh. I don't know what else to say, man.

OK, on behalf of repgeek, you are hereby granted the title of "Sales Thread Deputy". Please feel free to post in sales threads, should you find a member selling a non-Ultimate caseback on an Ultimate model or ask a member who says his Rolex GMT IIc has "better than average rep lume" just *how* much better his replica's lume is.

Jeez, guys, we're really splitting hairs here.

If anyone sees a member trying to sell something that you honestly believe to not be what is advertised, ask the seller in the thread to clarify the description of the member's item you feel the seller has either avoided providing or has outright misrepresented the item to be. (That hasn't stopped numerous members from asking questions in a sales thread.)

To "thread crap" is to post something like "Your watch sucks a monkey's nutsack" or "Why are you selling this piece of trash?" However, if you are genuinely inquiring why a member has listed a GMT IIc CHS, but you can clearly see from the member's macro photos that the hands are indeed incorrectly stacked, then diplomatically request verification from the seller in the thread. Just don't be a pr!ck about it; that's what a "thread crap" is, in my opinion.

All of us make mistakes; if a member listed an Ultimate 104, but he forgot that the caseback was replaced by an inferior 104 caseback, and he advertise the watch as an "Ultimate 104", then please post in the thread, and the "good" member will either edit his original post or clarify his advertisement in a follow-up post to your question.

To me, there is a clear difference between someone who is posting like a madman so that he can sell 3 watches in a 30-day period, and a member who makes an honest mistake (and eventually edits his sales thread) about a watch he has for sale.

In the end, there is no set rule of thumb that moderators (or if there was to be a "sales thread helper" position) follow to ensure a 100% scam-free environment. The other moderators and I have encouraged you, the repgeek public, to let us know if you think a member is up to no good, and that's about all anyone can do.

There will *never* be a black & white answer to resolve potential scammers on repgeek, on the Interweb, or in life. Sometimes, sh!t does happen, like the dude selling t-shirts on "Forrest Gump" said. However, I've attempted to provide guidance on when a member should ask questions in a sales thread, when a member should PM a moderator, and how to diplomatically do this.

Prior to becoming a made man, when I saw a member doing some shady sh!t, I had no problem in calling the member out in their sales thread, in other threads, or starting my own threads. However, I didn't become comfortable doing it until I'd been on repgeek for a while and developed a (small as it is) decent good-guy reputation. I would not recommend that a guy who has 5 posts and signed up yesterday start bearing the burden of catching all repgeek scammers, though, as it would put a pretty large hole in his reputation, should he be wrong on calling out a scammer.

Like Forrest Gump said, "That's all I have to say about that."

(God damn! Did I really make two "Forrest Gump" references in the same post? WTF?)

Sorry matt, if I ever gave you the idea that I wanted the status that was my mistake - I don't. It was just a suggestion, and obviously a waste of time.

That's all I have to say.

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Originally Posted by mattusss

(God damn! Did I really make two "Forrest Gump" references in the same post? WTF?)

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well, "stupid is as stupid does"

Sorry Matt, with all those references that's all that came to my head. Cheap shot, absolutely but the ball was just too perfect :lol:

Bigger problem I see in the sales section is members buying at wholesale and profiting.

Also there should be a rule that doesn't allow members to sell a second hand watch that is still available brand new for less.

These posts can be found everyday in the section

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Originally Posted by Drhulee

Sorry matt, if I ever gave you the idea that I wanted the status that was my mistake - I don't. It was just a suggestion, and obviously a waste of time.

That's all I have to say.

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Dr, no attempt, regardless of outcome, to improve this site, the way it runs or to make it a nicer place to be is a waste of time.

You have helped a lot in bringing the whole sales and scams saga to light, so thanks.

As Matt said we are working on new rules to make things tougher, but where there is a will, there is a way....
Any help from any member is still help, even if it leads nowhere.

Really you guys are the forum and in a way run it, we just make sure there is a way of dealing with the evil doers.

Oh, and Matt you are wrong about specific portfolios, I am the exception to the rule and am also the vintage mod....which i still cannot read all of all the time (by the way - no sales pitches are allowed in the vintage section - bit of a plug there....) ;)

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Originally Posted by prestigewatchco

Bigger problem I see in the sales section is members buying at wholesale and profiting.

Also there should be a rule that doesn't allow members to sell a second hand watch that is still available brand new for less.

These posts can be found everyday in the section

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So true PWC. or for selling for like $5 less than retail....:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by txcollector

That's a gray area that I'd like some clarification (maybe a few use cases on the guidelines)

If somebody lists an ultimate and you notice the caseback, case, CG, etc. are not ultimate do you call it?

Or if they are selling a $200 rep and asking $350 with clever marketing?

Or when somebody asks a question about lume, or movement and the seller is evasive or untruthful with the answer?

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1. yep, but be polite and explain why - they might not know themselves

2. as above, or kindly ask for clarification

3. evasive is dodgy - report to us. untruthful is a potential scammer -report to us. As said above, they may not know themselves. if something is an obvious outright lie, call them out (still be polite) and report it, we will nuke the thread if that's the case - you'll notice a bit of that lately....

If you hit the Report Post button (the exclamation mark under their avatar section) all mods get an email - someone will be onto it pretty quickly (i hope...lol)

DRh -- Like lr said, no suggestion is a waste of time. It's just there's no need for a "sales thread helper"; every member is a "helper". A helper of the repgeek community. :)

http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/j...s/Untitled.jpg

What chance do we have though when mods reply to sale posts and don't pull up the OP on the lack of tagged photos? :rolleyes: :D

(I've dropped a PM to the Mod in question ;) )