Me And A Gun

[SFA437]

Yes, SFA, that's why I said it didn't apply to you. Sadly, I think you're right about your society having gone too far. We haven't yet gone that far in the UK, thank goodness, but we are going that way, thanks to the influences we've imported. But how are we to get out of the spiral?

You're spot on too about dehumanising not working, that's got a lot to do with my feeling the way I do.

As odd as it sounds, considering my job and location, I think the Muslims have it down right. YUP! I said it!

There are quite a few members here who have been to / lived in / served in the Middle East. Concepts such as respect for family, respect for elders and most importantly SHAME have weight and value here. That is what society at large has lost and I do not seeing us getting it back anytime soon if ever.

I've pretty much written off the United States long term. I have property here in Iraq (well Kurdistan, almost another world). There I would have no need for a firearm, as a matter of fact I walk the streets unarmed quite regularly when I am there.

[DVS]

I live in Amsterdam, guns are illegal here. Ofcourse, like in every country where guns are illegal, it is possible to get one. Do I feel unsafe when I walk the streets, knowing I don't have a gun and someone around me, might have one? Nope...

The crime/kill rates here are waaaay less then in the US.. I really believe it is because we are prohibited to carry a gun.
How many times has it been that a kid kills a a lot of other kids/teachers at school in the US in the last 10 years?? I lost count..
I can only compare it to the Netherlands and can only count one.. A boy shot his teacher. Ofcourse, the US is 100 times bigger (if not more) than the country I live in... But still...

Personally, I don't think I would feel much safer knowing everyone around me carries a gun.. Too many crazy people to trust with one..
I know, even a pen or a paperclip can kill someone.. And yes, if you are a Myth Buster of SFA you can build your own gun..

But what do I know, I live in a city where weed/hasj is legal and I'm loving it!

[SFA437]

And yes, if you are a Myth Buster of SFA you can build your own gun..

www.falfiles.com/forums

Quite a few people there have done it.

www.thehighroad.org

Another place where building of firearms is rather commonplace.

People have been building functional firearms since the 1500's with hand tools. Why would you suggest that someone with a modern machine shop and access to quality steels would be incapable of fabricating a firearm?

[spekoli]

quite the thread.

i'm not against guns, and i would own one if i lived in a place that made it easy to obtain and carry a firearm.
i am very happy though, that i do live in a place where hand-guns are not common, are not legal to carry, and are much harder to obtain.
at least if i get shot while walking down my street, it will shock the hell out of the entire population in this area.

[SFA437]

spekoli- YOU GOT IT BROTHER!

It would SHOCK someone.

We've lost that.

[painm8ker]

pain-

I swear there's an annex. I used it for a block of instruction I gave right before I came over here. There's like 25 appendicies to the UCR. When I get home in Nov. I'll grab my copy and scan the pages applicable. Might have been the 03 or 04- right before the AWB sunsetted. I am also not saying the attacker was fought off with a firearm- that would fall under justifiable homicide. The simple presentation of the firearm stops a good majority of attacks.

Not my in my experience, I bring it up or take it out, I usually end up using it but I keep things in check as long as I can so your results may vary

Made a mistake on the individual who discredited the study. Worked for the CDC and his last name was Lott- first name is wrong.

How is someone wanting to whack you with a bat fantasy? I was a cop for 13 years- seen people beaten with all sorts of blunt instruments.
everyone loves me, that's why its a fantasy :-), or maybe I am in the 10% that can take you :-P, OK I will stick with the love thing

As for Colin being a psycho- yes he was. As were the deviants who engaged in school shootings and God help Postal Workers The point is gun control works as well as drug control. A criminal by definition does not obey laws. Why would one more law suddenly turn him/her into a model citizen?

I used the term "Assault Weapon" not firearm. I am differentiating between a handgun and the most demonized of inanimate objects- something that looks like something the military uses. If you really wanted "common sense" gun control- forget 1500 dollar rifles and get rid of the Lorcin/Jennings/Cobray piece of dogs**t ones made of pot metal that sell for 78 bucks. I've never taken an M1-A off a suspect but I have SCADS of these cheap POSs.

Agreed, make them all illegal or don't, saying just assault rifles are banned then coming up with a stupid definition of assault rifle that fills some politicians goals is not helpful its stupid and wasteful.

And no you can't grow guns, but given a machine shop and some bar stock I can manufacture a fully functioning rifle, handgun or shotgun. They are quite simple things mechanically. You can confiscate every firearm made by every manufacturer and I could still be armed. If I can do it, someone with a deviant, criminal mind surely could.

Oh come on, homemade zip guns? with unhardened unrifled barrels? what about firing pins? sights? you know its not that easy, be realistic, even a good machinist could only make something that might fire once or might take your hand off.

I was an officer in North Carolina after I separated from active duty Army. The views of officers outside major urban areas typically differ radically from those who live in cities. They are products of the environment. If virtually an entire population is told over and over that gun control works or guns are bad they will believe it. I personally do not imbue steel with a human trait. The firearm is neutral- the wielder is good or evil.

Agreed,I just don't want to give evil easy access to tools

For the record: I do enjoy firearms. I build them, modify them and am a licensed gunsmith. I also make my living carrying a firearm. My point of view is as biased as anyone else's. I'm just here for the argument
I hear you, I made a living carrying small arms as well, I directed and taught close air support, we carried small arms and called in large ones. but that's there, this is here, I don't want here to ever be like there.

I love a good argument myself :-)

[Posh]

Why did you feel the urge to tell us you are changing your life, quiting your phone and stuff? If posh can't put a piece about guns, why should we read your life experience?
(Even tho it was interesting)

This argument is just not good

I was wondering this myself.

Well! Posh really drew out all the gun freaks from the woodwork. In the immortal words of Corporal Jones from Dad's Army "They don't like it up them". I just wonder how many of these good folks with their pistols, their rifles and their 600 rounds a minute automatics have actually ever fired at and been fired at in earnest (SFA, you I know have, I don't include you in this). How many have actually killed another human being, and know how that feels. You know why we call the people we've killed, huns, gooks, terrs, muja hedeen? Because it dehumanises them and lets us, hopefully, live with ourselves when we snuff them out. They do the same I'm sure. That, good people, is what guns are for, to kill people. You can justify them all you like, but you see I, and no doubt others among us, know what they are really capable of. You can say it's people and not guns that kill people. So I can say in response, wake up and smell the coffee, you are so steeped in gun culture you cannot tell the difference. I have had experience of both and have no doubt which I prefer. If I never touch another gun it will be too soon.

Just my two cents worth to a pointless discussion.

Rock on Hyacinth Gecko!

It's Bucket!

So you propose I do patrols through Baghdad armed only with my wits? Surely you jest . Here's a question for you- if wits are enough, why do police officers carry firearms? Even better why does the Secret Service carry them? Surely you do not posit they have no wits about them....

Yes, of course. Go into warzone with a quiche and a smile. That's what I advocate. Kill them with kindness.

As much as calling them ragheads or muj or other racially insensitive terms, dehumanizing does not work. Every life I have taken has affected me. I know those who died had families, children- someone who will miss their presence. The ones who brag about killing either never have or are slightly deranged.

Dehumanization of you "enemy" is what basically has to be done in order to take someone's life away from them. I learned this from a former Marine I know.

This friend is a walking, talking country song. He has a house, a dog and Ford truck. He's a Marine and has been to Iraq and Afghanistan. We were having dinner at a restaurant in the Inner Harbor over a year ago and were discussing politics, which inevitably comes up because he is a staunch Republican and I am not. He was telling me about his position on the war and then told him mine. After some banter back and forth, I asked him if he had killed anybody while he was over there. He looked me in the eye and said, "If I told you I did, would that change how you felt about me?" I told him plainly that it would but I wasn't sure because of how I felt about him already. And then he said, "Then I'm not going to tell you if I did or didn't because I don't change us." I couldn't say anything back because it brought up so many different scenarios and emotions for me. I guess this says more about me than it does about him. I have my principles and values, most of which he shares but on something as important to me as life, I refuse to compromise my views. It's a very complex issue and I'm still unsure about what answer I wanted to hear from him.

If he did kill anyone, then he would be one of those people I couldn't ever see the same way because I feel like he didn't HAVE to join the military if he had done well in school or started working somewhere. But he didn't have the money, the scores or the ambition to go, which I don't fault him for at all. Before I knew him, he was smokin', tokin' and jokin' and not taking authority too seriously. He continues to tell me he's grown SO much in a such short period of time, which after meeting his friends, I'm inclined to agree because he says he USED to be just like them. He's tremendous intelligence, for being as he put it, "Pennsyltucky white trash," and his enormous amount of pride in himself and his country and his service is refeshing.

If he didn't kill anybody, then it was moot point. We still talk, althought I can't date him, and I still don't know if he did or didn't and I'm actually glad he didn't tell me.

[SFA437]

I'm enjoying this quite a bit pain- beer's on me in late Nov when I'm stateside! Talking watches is fun too and I've amassed quite a collection over here.

To me, good gun control is Project Exile in Virginia. Do a crime with a gun- 5 years. No parole, no good behavior- 5 years to the day. Kill someone you go for life, and life means until you expire- not 12 years.

I still think Muslims have the right idea- family, respect and shame. Good motivators against evil. Even Salah-al-Din allowed Crusaders to vacate Jerusalem when wanton violence was the norm amongst "civilized" populations.

When I say firearm, I am not talking about a 7.62 rifle, a black powder handgun or longarm makes much more sense. Less pressure plus I can fabricate propellant and shot myself. Barrel fabrication (smoothbore) isn't all that hard- heat treating modern recievers is a cast iron ^&$#@&*!(*%!# but it can be done. All that is avoided with a smokepole.

[Posh]

spekoli- YOU GOT IT BROTHER!

It would SHOCK someone.

We've lost that.

Flippy McWaffle, which side of the argument are you on or is the beer taking effect?

[SFA437]

Posh- not waffling at all.

He said if he were shot- it would shock his community.

The feeling of shock is lacking when we in the US hear of someone being shot (or stabbed or beaten or raped or robbed).

It shows how far we have fallen as a society as a whole.

My contention is that it isn't the fault of the firearm that there are so many deaths and such violence in the States, but a deeper underlying rot on our collective psyche.

[Kollektor]

Look closely and you will notice there is even a larger problem at hand. - one of them is a Yankee fan!!

Stevie, that may be balanced out by the 33 - isn't that Larry Bird? Anyway, this is like a United Colors of Benetton from Hell commercial.

[SFA437]

Kid dislikes the Yankees so much he wears his face mask upside down.

I'm a pinstripe man myself.... grrrrr

[cosmic]

Here's my 2c, sfa437 - I am with you all the way bro !

FFS, I have guns or shall I say sporting arms, I go on safaris, hunt big game, enjoy blood sports (not with the g/f tho), - why do I do it and enjoy shooting my firearms, because I like to. If anyone wants to tell me why I can't own guns or shouldn't eduacte my children safely about firearms or anything else on that matter which I have done , all I can say is GO FU*K YOURSELF AND MYOB !

If you ain't got kids but preach like you should do this or that with them, do yourself a favour, spread your legs, produce some sprogs and bring them up the way you feel !

WTF is this thread doing in Gen Rep Discussion, it's a frigging watch site FFS !

[SFA437]

Thanks cosmic

As for why it's here- this is Posh's house so she can do what she wants

Plus the debate is a lot of fun.

[stevie7s]

Stevie, that may be balanced out by the 33 - isn't that Larry Bird? Anyway, this is like a United Colors of Benetton from Hell commercial.

That '33' is in a baseball on that little heathen's shirt. That would keep Larry Bird fans safe but would put Jose Canseco fans in a tizzy!!

[cosmic]

Thanks cosmic

As for why it's here- this is Posh's house so she can do what she wants

Plus the debate is a lot of fun.

Excuse me for the swearing in Posh's house !

[SFA437]

Was looking at the picture of the little Palestinian kids and I realized something else is wrong with the States.....

A distinct lack of appropriate role models. Who do kids look up to today? Felon sports stars, rock & rap "artists", drug dealers with flashy cars and wads of cash....

Fathers are absent, either working 16 hour days or just plain gone. The dissolution of the nuclear family has removed an important part of a young man's life.

My son, while I am gone quite a bit, is glued to my hip when I am home. We're inseparable- we work on my car, go fishing and hunting, we go to the shooting range, we play soccer and basketball, we go to the gym together, anything and everything with the exception of hitting the latrine and quality time with the wife includes him.

I teach him things like respect for his elders, reverence for all religions, honesty, honor and shame.

When he does something wrong he is ashamed of it, embarassed. I don't tell him it's OK and mollycoddle him- he gets punished- then it is forgotten about. RARELY does he make the same error.

Maybe if American parents took a more active role in their children's life instead of treating them like fashion accessories they'd have the internal moral compass to not kill someone whether it be by firearm or other means..........

[painm8ker]

I'm enjoying this quite a bit pain- beer's on me in late Nov when I'm stateside!
Deal! but I am buying the first round!

Talking watches is fun too and I've amassed quite a collection over here.

To me, good gun control is Project Exile in Virginia. Do a crime with a gun- 5 years. No parole, no good behavior- 5 years to the day. Kill someone you go for life, and life means until you expire- not 12 years.

I still think Muslims have the right idea- family, respect and shame. Good motivators against evil. Even Salah-al-Din allowed Crusaders to vacate Jerusalem when wanton violence was the norm amongst "civilized" populations.

The public executions and maiming are a pretty good deterrent as well

When I say firearm, I am not talking about a 7.62 rifle, a black powder handgun or longarm makes much more sense. Less pressure plus I can fabricate propellant and shot myself. Barrel fabrication (smoothbore) isn't all that hard- heat treating modern recievers is a cast iron ^&$#@&*!(*%!# but it can be done. All that is avoided with a smokepole.

OK, we have an accord then, Legalized black powder smooth bore long rifles, everything else is out! How funny would it be to see gansta rappers doing a drive by with Davey Crocket style muskets

[SFA437]

Every time I hear the word "accord" even in reference to Hondas, I think of Johnny Depp staggering around like Kieth Richards

I get first round since I'll probably be drunk by the time you show up (I figure staying intoxicated is a good way to avoid hangovers! )

Public executions are not all that bad an idea. The death sentence is kind of an abstract concept until you see someone swinging by the neck. I like what they do to rapists here (honor killings while they do happen are not all that prevalent). Turning the rapist over to the woman's family. What happens happens.

The funny part is the entire firearm law debate is pretty much moot for me. I am a retired police officer and can carry legally anywhere in the United States.

[Posh]

Was looking at the picture of the little Palestinian kids and I realized something else is wrong with the States.....

A distinct lack of appropriate role models. Who do kids look up to today? Felon sports stars, rock & rap "artists", drug dealers with flashy cars and wads of cash....

Fathers are absent, either working 16 hour days or just plain gone. The dissolution of the nuclear family has removed an important part of a young man's life.

My son, while I am gone quite a bit, is glued to my hip when I am home. We're inseparable- we work on my car, go fishing and hunting, we go to the shooting range, we play soccer and basketball, we go to the gym together, anything and everything with the exception of hitting the latrine and quality time with the wife includes him.

I teach him things like respect for his elders, reverence for all religions, honesty, honor and shame.

When he does something wrong he is ashamed of it, embarassed. I don't tell him it's OK and mollycoddle him- he gets punished- then it is forgotten about. RARELY does he make the same error.

Maybe if American parents took a more active role in their children's life instead of treating them like fashion accessories they'd have the internal moral compass to not kill someone whether it be by firearm or other means..........

A lot of those children have role models, just ones you wouldn't think are the best; actually, I'm sure their father's value systems are similar to your own. Don't look down on those kids too much because their fathers are more than likely nearby. You're thousands of miles away from your child, and you're away from the most formative years of your child willingly, by choice which is AMAZING to me.

[Anubis]

classy.

[Guanaco]

Soldiers are one of the best parents kids can have, they're the model of respect for your country, leadership and honor. What more could you want?

[Posh]

Soldiers are one of the best parents kids can have, they're the model of respect for your country, leadership and honor. What more could you want?

A parent who's around when I need them.

But I see your point.

[SFA437]

Posh-

My point exactly. Maybe I didn't make my post clear enough.

There is enough guidance in those kid's lives that they would strap on 10 pounds of Semtex and some ball bearings and go high order in a crowd. Is that acceptable behavior in a normal society? Of course not. But they have someone to look up to and emulate.

My value systems vice their father's are most definitely different. I do not instill hate in my child towards anybody. I've even gone so far as to tell him, and explain to him, that those who are shooting at me here are doing what they think is right for their country and should be respected. My son gives no thought to skin color, religion or nationality whatsoever and brags he has Iraqi friends (my interpreters talk to him on Yahoo when I am on). It's sunk in too, something he'll carry for life.

My job takes me all over the planet. I could turn down GS15 pay and go back to being a police officer at 1/12th the salary. Then again there goes his basic education (back to NC), our home in NY (where my wife and I were raised), his private high school (Chaminade) and quite a few other things.

I know of very few people who would walk away from 150 a year to go back to 25 a year. 3 years of separation for a lifetime of benefit seems a fair trade.

[Guanaco]

sfa437 don't let anyone tell you otherwise, you're doing a great job; Anyone telling you otherwise is just plain ignorant.