Endless Love: Marriage dead? Why?

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Originally Posted by Emperor Penguin

Guys, let's keep it simple here. If you marry and stay married for fifty years, good for you. If you marry and then divorce, be a man and accept the financial consequences. Let us not draw conclusions from anecdotes, but at the same time we should not be so overly idealistic to the idea of marriage.

There is one undeniable fact about this whole marriage issue: it's a crapshoot.

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Marriage is not a crap shoot. Craps is a crap shoot. But you are right about keeping it simple. The simple facts in this matter for both men and women are the same. You can choose someone based on a lot of different things, e.g. money, looks, their ability to make your eyes roll into the back of your head. But whatever the other criteria, I think three of those things must include someone from a healthy family background, good character and similar value systems to your own. That ensures the longevity of anyone's marriage.

People don't just get married and then divorce because the sky is blue. They divorce for reasons that could be seen well before the marriage but they refused to want to see it, thinking they were going to change or you were going to change them. If you take a chance on choosing someone based on ANY other criteria than these three simple tenets, your marriage is doomed to failure.

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Originally Posted by Posh

Marriage is not a crap shoot. Craps is a crap shoot. But you are right about keeping it simple. The simple facts in this matter for both men and women are the same. You can choose someone based on a lot of different things, e.g. money, looks, their ability to make your eyes roll into the back of your head. But whatever the other criteria, I think three of those things must include someone from a healthy family background, good character and similar value systems to your own. That ensures the longevity of anyone's marriage.

People don't just get married and then divorce because the sky is blue. They divorce for reasons that could be seen well before the marriage but they refused to want to see it, thinking they were going to change or you were going to change them. If you take a chance on choosing someone based on ANY other criteria than these three simple tenets, your marriage is doomed to failure.

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Agreed, but you still cannot deny that there are couples out there who have done everything you have suggested, yet still divorced. There are anecdotes to substantiate your claim, just as there are anecdotes to substantiate the contrary.

There are no cookie-cutter solutions to succeed in this whole marriage matter, and you know it. I submit that there is no universal secret to succeed in marriage, and that alone would conclude convincingly that success in marriage is indeed a craphsoot.

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Originally Posted by Emperor Penguin

Agreed, but you still cannot deny that there are couples out there who have done everything you have suggested, yet still divorced. There are anecdotes to substantiate your claim, just as there are anecdotes to substantiate the contrary.

There are no cookie-cutter solutions to succeed in this whole marriage matter, and you know it. I submit that there is no universal secret to succeed in marriage, and that alone would conclude convincingly that success in marriage is indeed a craphsoot.

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Just what kind of marital issues are you referring to exactly? There's almost nothing that cannot be be repaired as long as the two individuals involved are COMMITTED to making their marriage work. If one person or both people decide that everything is "too hard" to work on (and I don't mean abuse or addiction situations), then it's going to fail. The media is subconsciously and consciously telling people that nothing is worth saving. That old TV isn't worth saving; that car is three years old and not worth hanging onto. Your husband pissed on the toilet seat. Don't put up with it. Divorce him. We are now at the point that even the people in our lives aren't worth trying to reconcile with because there is something better waiting for you at the club. That kind of thinking is destroying relationships in America.

Most everything I mentioned earlier one should look for in husband or wife are things you look for BEFORE you get married, not after. If you marry someone with YOUR VALUE SYSTEMS and a problems arises, you can work through it. If they do not have those values, your relationship will fail. If the person you married saw fighting, strife and divorce in their families, the seed is planted that at the first sign of problems in their own marriages they should leave. Anybody with issues going into a relationship is going to bring trouble at some point. Guaranteed. People don't even feel obligated to stay because of their children which is more scary than anything else.

I don't think there is any obstacle that cannot be overcome in a marriage, short of abuse and addiction. If you leave for any other reasons than that, especially when there are children involved, I think you're making a terrible mistake. But by all accounts of the media, there's something better waiting anyway so go ahead.

And for your information, it's not just women bringing baggage onto the plane that is a relationship because men have a matching set along with them too! It sounds very much like you are one of those men. Who hurt you or what did you see that made you so cynical and jaded about marriage or relationships in general?

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Originally Posted by Posh

And for your information, it's not just women bringing baggage onto the plane that is a relationship because men have a matching set along with them too! It sounds very much like you are one of those men. Who hurt you or what did you see that made you so cynical and jaded about marriage or relationships in general?

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Attacking the messenger instead of the message? We are not talking about my personal life or yours, so quit speculating.

You do discuss a point that I agree on: success in marriage is a matter of mutual will. No ****. That is a very simple concept, but it is a folly to assume that all people act with those serious intentions. You cannot deny that there are selfish people everywhere, both men and women. However, men have every right to cry louder when they fail in marriage because they have lost more financially. The fact is undeniable that men make more money than women, and women have more to gain financially in the event of divorce. Given this apparent inequality between the genders (i.e., men making more money than women), there is little wonder why the ideal of mutual will would be difficult to attain. Conniving wives throwing fits at their husbands to get goods, divorcing wives suing to get half or more of the marital estate, etc.

A lifetime of bliss, "'till death do us part," is indeed a worthy endeavor and a fundamental part of life in general. Many have achieved that, we cannot deny. However, to stubbornly dwell solely on the ideals of marriage without any regard to the harsh realities of divorce would be foolish. Marriage is beautiful, yes, but divorce has its ugly side, too.

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Originally Posted by Posh

[SIZE=3][COLOR=Red] I think three of those things must include someone from a healthy family background, good character and similar value systems to your own. That ensures the longevity of anyone's marriage.

If you take a chance on choosing someone based on ANY other criteria than these three simple tenets, your marriage is doomed to failure.

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Posh,

I have two points for you to consider, I am an Orphan for all intents and purposes, I had no family as a child to speak of, does that mean you think no one should ever marry me? I Don't think this is what you meant but that's what your statement says. I know a lot of people from screwed up family's or no family at all who turn out OK (don't punish the son for the sins of the father). I agree the odds are better with someone from a "healthy" family life but to write off those of us who didn't get that chance without ever meeting us seems a little harsh.

You also said "I don't think there is any obstacle that cannot be overcome in a marriage, short of abuse and addiction." You left off infidelity, you seem to have issues with that too based on your pretty woman post and no, infidelity is not an addiction. I think the heart of all the issues to end a marriage is trust. All kinds of things can lead to the trust going out of a marriage but once that happens its time to part ways.

Great posts BTW very thought provoking and informative.

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Originally Posted by painm8ker

Posh,

I have two points for you to consider, I am an Orphan for all intents and purposes, I had no family as a child to speak of, does that mean you think no one should ever marry me? I Don't think this is what you meant but that's what your statement says. I know a lot of people from screwed up family's or no family at all who turn out OK (don't punish the son for the sins of the father). I agree the odds are better with someone from a "healthy" family life but to write off those of us who didn't get that chance without ever meeting us seems a little harsh.

You also said "I don't think there is any obstacle that cannot be overcome in a marriage, short of abuse and addiction." You left off infidelity, you seem to have issues with that too based on your pretty woman post and no, infidelity is not an addiction. I think the heart of all the issues to end a marriage is trust. All kinds of things can lead to the trust going out of a marriage but once that happens its time to part ways.

Great posts BTW very thought provoking and informative.

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I'm glad you don't think that's what I meant because it wasn't. I think you understand that I don't think you are not marriage material.

Let's be real: someone or a group of someone's brought you up from infancy to adulthood. If you have no "traditional" family of which to speak, then your adoptive family has to give you your roots and hopefully they were good.

I left off infidelity purposely. I think a relationship can come back from infidelity, and in should in the case of children. To assume that all bets are off once someone cheats is sometimes tantamount to throwing the baby out with the bathwater. I have some girlfriends who choose to stay with their husbands even after infidelity. Some people have basically good marriages and don't want to loose their 10, 20, 30 year marriages over a tawdry male or female sl*t. Some people do. I wouldn't be one of those people, quite honestly. I'm not an all-or-nothing person generally.

Pretty Woman I have issues with because I don't like to see prostitutes take wealthy men out of circulation. It's really a market share thing and territory thing. Let hookers have low-level middle management, not governors and CEOs. :D

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Originally Posted by Emperor Penguin

Attacking the messenger instead of the message? We are not talking about my personal life or yours, so quit speculating.

You do discuss a point that I agree on: success in marriage is a matter of mutual will. No ****. That is a very simple concept, but it is a folly to assume that all people act with those serious intentions. You cannot deny that there are selfish people everywhere, both men and women. However, men have every right to cry louder when they fail in marriage because they have lost more financially. The fact is undeniable that men make more money than women, and women have more to gain financially in the event of divorce. Given this apparent inequality between the genders (i.e., men making more money than women), there is little wonder why the ideal of mutual will would be difficult to attain. Conniving wives throwing fits at their husbands to get goods, divorcing wives suing to get half or more of the marital estate, etc.

A lifetime of bliss, "'till death do us part," is indeed a worthy endeavor and a fundamental part of life in general. Many have achieved that, we cannot deny. However, to stubbornly dwell solely on the ideals of marriage without any regard to the harsh realities of divorce would be foolish. Marriage is beautiful, yes, but divorce has its ugly side, too.

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I wasn't "attacking the messanger" and don't want to speculate. That's why I asked you a legitimate question that you can feel free to answer or not. Your viewpoints tend to skew one way towards the marital disaster end of the spectrum and I want to know why. People don't automatically discount millenia old societal instituitions without a reason why. If you do hold these views without a real objective or even subjective reason, your arguments hold no sway whatsoever. You're arguing the point just to argue.

I'm not ignorant of the "evil" other side of marriage, it just doesn't strike me as the prevailing majority or even minority of marriages, as studies typically indicate. This begs the question as to what you've seen or experienced that would make marriage seem like this unfettered jackpot for Jezebelian women and this downward emotional and financial spiral for unsuspecting, virtuous men.

And it seems like you're implying that women in these marriages you're profiling don't work and are just sitting around and waiting to divorce their husbands because they didn't want to be with them to begin with. There are just as many women who stand to lose out financially because they are well-to-do and the men they are with are unemployed or usually under employed. Some men, but not the majority men as feminists would like you to believe, make more than women but that is a balance that is quickly shifting. I know of a few friends with men who bring very little to their relationships other than themselves, which is fine for some people. Marrying these men would put them in the same position as any man that has achieved the same thing as they have.

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Originally Posted by merkman

Forget I posted anything.

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Merk, I liked your post. Very touching about the second grade girl. Who knows? I bet she still thinks about you.

As for hoes... Hoes need love too. Hey, everybody has a heart, right? Except for Poshy... That beating in her chest is just a cash register...
:D :D

This has been a great read :D

I don't think there is much "luck" involved with keeping a marriage going. I can't explain how I knew my wife was going to be my wife, I just KNEW it after a week or so.

As time went by, that feeling cemented itelf into reality a year later. Do we get on each others nerves? Of course. Do we argue? Hell yes. Do we love each other more with every passing day? YES.

I guess for each man and woman the reasons why it works or doesn't work are as individual as fingerprints.

As for Pretty Woman- I think the movie was mistitled. Julia's kinda homely :lol: Put Scarlett Johanssen in the lead however......... :D

I just got back from my wedding pics day.. we had the outdoors session and my day started at 9am till midnight :)

We had a blast and all i kept thinking was how I'd love to grow old with my man.. :)

But u know what the sad thing was. My makeup artist and my hair stylist were talking about divorces while doing my hair and makeup. I told them I did not want to talk about this and anyway

Thanks Posh for giving me more hope on the subject (LOL) and I believe that marriage is not for everyone but at least one has got to try right? You might end up in a strong marriage like ur parents.. or mine :)

God gave man the gift of fire
Man invented the fire engine

God gave man the gift of love
Man invented the institution of marriage ...

Whats worse?

Knowing that no one is interested in you

or

Knowing you can't get anyone interested in you

Result

this thread.

LOL... a bit harsh, Novesh! And maybe a bit simplistic, too. I think this thread is more likely a result of fear of abandonment issues related to some irrational and maladaptive presumptions about the way things 'should' be. So let's have some compassion and be a bit more gentle :)

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Originally Posted by swissaddict

LOL... a bit harsh, Novesh! And maybe a bit simplistic, too. I think this thread is more likely a result of fear of abandonment issues related to some irrational and maladaptive presumptions about the way things 'should' be. So let's have some compassion and be a bit more gentle :)

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:lol:

compassion? quid pro quo...on that topic.

But you hit it on the head with abandonment, irrationality and maladaptive presumptions.

A possible need to be in the spot light? :rolleyes:

If marriage isn't for you, great! Stay out of the damn gene pool, PLEASE. :shh:

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Originally Posted by Novesh

Whats worse?

Knowing that no one is interested in you

or

Knowing you can't get anyone interested in you

Result

this thread.

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No, I think I'm good to go on that front. But thanks for caring.

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Originally Posted by Novesh

:lol:

compassion? quid pro quo...on that topic.

But you hit it on the head with abandonment, irrationality and maladaptive presumptions.

A possible need to be in the spot light? :rolleyes:

If marriage isn't for you, great! Stay out of the damn gene pool, PLEASE. :shh:

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Admin Edit

Posh, I wonder if he was talking about Emperor Penguin who posted the nomarriage site. He says, "If marriage isn't for you, great!" which makes me think he isn´t speaking to you.

I hope I am right about this...

Admin edit

Johng is correct, EP wasn't posting the right type of stuff, some of my comments were towards him.

Others were general statements not directed at anyone.

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Originally Posted by Novesh

Admin Edit

Johng is correct, EP wasn't posting the right type of stuff, some of my comments were towards him.

Others were general statements not directed at anyone.

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Reminds me of one of those young men in school, who just didn't know when to quit.

Not unlike the strapling here.

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I think this thread has run it's course.