Me And A Gun

[Kollektor]

Actually, Posh, God kills EVERYBODY and every living thing on Planet Earth. We all die. By the millions and millions. Evil?

People who are killing terrorists are not sociopaths. If we didn't have these people, we would be ruled--or murdered--by sociopaths. Are you suggesting we all march to our deaths like sheep to the slaughter? Should we bow to terrorists and let them guide our national policy? Should we change our religion because we are being forced by sword?

As far as semantics go, killing and murdering are diametric opposites; and frankly, I'm surprised to see you taking this stance.

A hackneyed thought experiment: If--God forbid--a terrorist was about to murder someone you love, and you have a gun in your hand, would you turn it against the terrorist? If you "turn the other cheek," then in essence it could be argued that you just murdered your loved one insofar as you were able to prevent the act. Whether or not you perceive this to be an act of murder on your own behalf or as an act of free will by the killer, evil reigns irrespective. Nobody has to feel good about killing, but in a world where evil is present, "killing" is sometimes very necessary.

As you point out, maybe the terms are relative to a degree. Relative to societal constructs, relative to cultural perspectives; relative to religious beliefs or ethics. For example, in some religions, the act of infidelity might warrant a death sentence. The executor would not be considered a murderer by that society. Neither would the committee that judged the man. However, the Hague might condemn both the committee and the executor as murderers. Ethical? Can we know what objective reality is? What right and wrong really are in any objective sense? Of course not. But for some reason, most humans on the planet would not view an act of killing in self defense as an act of murder. Majority rules? Common sense? Who knows.

I personally believe that a horrible person is one who enjoys killing others. But the act of killing itself is in a vacuum, to be judged by circumstance.

This is semantics. I prefer the word kill. This makes my stance unique even within my own family. And my interpretation, along with my relationship with G-d, is my own. Somebody can replace the word "kill" with "murder" or "dance," I'm still going to look on somebody who takes somebody's life away as a horrible person. If you think it's "murder" and you can "kill" whomever you please based on this view, by all means go ahead. Everybody has their own psychological constructs in which to see and work with the world in which they live.

Some people can take another person's life and sleep at night. Good for them. The government needs some sociopaths in order to have an effective department of war.

G-d has the right to to take lives and command for lives to be taken, obviously, because He is G-d. Recently, He hasn't done this, to my knowledge. When and if He does, I'll be first person looking for a gun.

[painm8ker]

Kollektor,

I think the argument can be made about how to interpret the ancient Hebrew meaning of Kill vs. Murder, but in a subsequent clarification Jesus showed up and started the whole turn the other cheek thing. Then he showed us what he meant, just in case there was any question by dieing without resistance. He even chastised Peter for trying to defend him by cutting off that servant guys ear. Pretty much all the 12 met the same end. So if your a christian you don't have a religious argument to stand on. Your only hope is to repent on your death bed if your a christian soldier. Its not relative or based on circumstances if you kill someone you committed a sin, accept it, repent, pray for forgiveness.

God was also pretty clear about it being OK for him to kill and not for us "Vengance is Mine."

This is another one of the things that those of us who have chosen to serve in spite of our faith have to live with.

I do agree not all those who serve are sociopaths, some just accept that risking their immortal souls for the greater good is an acceptable risk. Some are sociopaths though, can you guess which I am?

I am not sure I buy into your point about someone being bad only if they enjoy killing, in the end we are not judged by what we think or what we feel, we are and should be judged by what we do. There is an old saying "the road to hell is paved with good intentions."

Theology, metaphysics and ethics on rep watch board who would have thought!

Thanks for getting us all thinking Posh!

Actually, Posh, God kills EVERYBODY and every living thing on Planet Earth. We all die. By the millions and millions. Evil?

People who are killing terrorists are not sociopaths. If we didn't have these people, we would be ruled--or murdered--by sociopaths. Are you suggesting we all march to our deaths like sheep to the slaughter? Should we bow to terrorists and let them guide our national policy? Should we change our religion because we are being forced by sword?

As far as semantics go, killing and murdering are diametric opposites; and frankly, I'm surprised to see you taking this stance.

A hackneyed thought experiment: If--God forbid--a terrorist was about to murder someone you love, and you have a gun in your hand, would you turn it against the terrorist? If you "turn the other cheek," then in essence it could be argued that you just murdered your loved one insofar as you were able to prevent the act. Whether or not you perceive this to be an act of murder on your own behalf or as an act of free will by the killer, evil reigns irrespective. Nobody has to feel good about killing, but in a world where evil is present, "killing" is sometimes very necessary.

As you point out, maybe the terms are relative to a degree. Relative to societal constructs, relative to cultural perspectives; relative to religious beliefs or ethics. For example, in some religions, the act of infidelity might warrant a death sentence. The executor would not be considered a murderer by that society. Neither would the committee that judged the man. However, the Hague might condemn both the committee and the executor as murderers. Ethical? Can we know what objective reality is? What right and wrong really are in any objective sense? Of course not. But for some reason, most humans on the planet would not view an act of killing in self defense as an act of murder. Majority rules? Common sense? Who knows.

I personally believe that a horrible person is one who enjoys killing others. But the act of killing itself is in a vacuum, to be judged by circumstance.

[Kollektor]

With all due respect to you and your belief system, any argument can very well be made about anything under the sun. However, the Hebrew is very clear and straightforward. I'm not religious, not Christian, and couldn't care less either way, but it would be sophistry to bend the meanings to fit your beliefs.

Re the definition of a bad person, your words, not mine. I never said that intention is the "only" thing that makes a person "bad" in my view. We will agree to disagree on the intention vs. deed issue. Some very bad, unethical people donate money to charities for the sole purpose of taking a tax writeoff. Was the donation made with good intentions? Certainly not. It was made for personal gain. Only my opinion, of course, but I think intentions weigh heavier than deeds. Is a hangman who enjoys inflicting fatal wounds on his victims a good man? Would you let this man babysit your children?

Kollektor,

I think the argument can be made about how to interpret the ancient Hebrew meaning of Kill vs. Murder, but in a subsequent clarification Jesus showed up and started the whole turn the other cheek thing. Then he showed us what he meant, just in case there was any question by dieing without resistance. He even chastised Peter for trying to defend him by cutting off that servant guys ear. Pretty much all the 12 met the same end. So if your a christian you don't have a religious argument to stand on. Your only hope is to repent on your death bed if your a christian soldier. Its not relative or based on circumstances if you kill someone you committed a sin, accept it, repent, pray for forgiveness.

God was also pretty clear about it being OK for him to kill and not for us "Vengance is Mine."

This is another one of the things that those of us who have chosen to serve in spite of our faith have to live with.

I do agree not all those who serve are sociopaths, some just accept that risking their immortal souls for the greater good is an acceptable risk. Some are sociopaths though, can you guess which I am?

I am not sure I buy into your point about someone being bad only if they enjoy killing, in the end we are not judged by what we think or what we feel, we are and should be judged by what we do. There is an old saying "the road to hell is paved with good intentions."

Theology, metaphysics and ethics on rep watch board who would have thought!

Thanks for getting us all thinking Posh!