Cars That Go Boom: Detroit's Big Three & Me

[SFA437]

I LOVE the Sport Ka. Wish we could get them in the States!!

I had one here, as well as a Peugeot 307 Sport.

Nimble, efficient and can fit in places an F-350 never would. I'd buy one Stateside in a heartbeat.

That being said I own an XJS 12 cylinder so I do get the big displacement engine.

Comparing both is comparing apples and oranges. Yes they are both motor transport but made for vastly different markets and uses. I can't pull a trailer or load a days worth of construction supplies into a 307

[normanduke]

I can't think of one GM car I'd want.
Maybe the before the last version ' Vette, but any company that has foisted the hideaous Escalade on the American public should be put out of its misery pronto or at least left to die on an ice floe.

I know. What about the Workers and the lit-tle chil-dren ?
Well, what are unemployment benefits for ? We're paying for that already.

The problem is that GM has gilt-edged pensions and health benefits.
I knew a woman who was having a complete set of dental implants at $4000 each and psychiatric counseling done in tandem on her husband's GM retirement bennies.

What we are really being asked for here is to underwrite expensive health benefits for GM employees and their families while 50 % of the rest of America has none. Zilch.

I am just marvelling at the current scene.
The federal government is handing out billions and billions of dollars to billionaires with their hat in their hand and tin cup....welfare on the grandest scale for the very rich. Meanwhile, back on Main Street the average Joe owns the last car he will ever have.
Not fair. And really, where does this end ?
Does it end ?
It doesn't.

What GM needs to do to get back in the red is to make the car that we need i.e. a mini two seater that gets 50 MPG plus.

**********************************

Posh, aren't you afraid of scareing the children by putting up that pic of Rosa De Lauro ? LOL. Really, she gives them nightmares !
And then to top it, Nancy ( face lift ) Pelosi.

[Posh]

I'm glad it stayed civil and everyone shared their thoughts, please continue. It's stories like Hustler's that make me cringe, but I cringe more under the multiples. Although I think he'd be able to find a job, I would hate for him to do it in the current economic climate. Even companies without problems have frozen hiring because, as I am fond of reminding everyone, everything is connected to something else in the world (socially, financially, psychologically,etc.); this IS a global economy. Ford, Chrysler and GM's North American operations have caused them some trouble but they actually all do fairly well in most other markets worldwide, except Japan for OBVIOUS reasons. This is an oversimplification but: they shouldn't simply be allowed to implode because they gave the American public what they wanted when they wanted it. I saw plenty of people driving in their SUVs, sipping Starsbucks while paying 1.50 for gas, and they were doing it in American SUVS before and even after Japan got hip to the game.

In any event, this crisis is scaring me to my very core for more reasons than losing a large piece of the American national identity. I didn't have much to say about the destruction of Lehman (they are a rival!) but the cost of America losing its entire auto industry is too much to think about. Guys, I'm really upset at what their destruction could mean for the future of many other companies, some not even automotive related!

From financial news sources all over the world, from colleagues everywhere, in every single industry and sector, data about vital economic statistics are severely out of whack. I mean, these are statistics that have gone to danger levels that have hitherto been unseen EVER, and no one thought we could possibly see them like that. TED spreads, stock market indices, home costs and values, LIBOR rates, consumer confidence rates and other info that assess the long- and short-term strength of the economy of our country and the world are OUT OF CONTROL!

I don't like doomsday scenarios but in my very conservative estimation, losing any company in this atmosphere is not good but losing any of Detroits Big 3 could mean the collapse of far more than many lay people realize.

[MrZoSo]

Posh...You have my personal assurance ( ) that GM (or Ford ) is not going to go away anytime soon. They will recover, and faster than anyone could ever imagine. Just be patient.

[Posh]

Posh...You have my personal assurance ( ) that GM (or Ford ) is not going to go away anytime soon. They will recover, and faster than anyone could ever imagine. Just be patient.

Well, Mr. ZoSo, since I have your personal guarantee that the American automotive landscape will not change in the near-term, I can now stop hyperventilating into my Gucci bag.

And I have the patience of Job, seriously, probably more than anyone else you know. Go ahead and try to think of someone else; I'll wait.

[metricsgeek]

Great discussion. 50B... Imagine if the govt were to sponsor an xPrize and pay someone to start up a NEW COMPANY. Avoid the legacy issues, and management issues, and legacy labor intrenchment. Spur innovation NOW. 50B goes a long way, friends.
Don't give it, let someone EARN it. Quickly so that we can move these experienced car people into the jobs and transition.

[Dave123]

Posh...You have my personal assurance ( ) that GM (or Ford ) is not going to go away anytime soon. They will recover, and faster than anyone could ever imagine. Just be patient.

GM is not going anywhere,there isn't anyone that would think that,i hope.

[MrZoSo]

GM has the money today to pay AOL for a full banner click on add to support a loan. (paraphrasing) It is in the best interest of America...So sayeth GM.
I agree Dave, GM is going no where. Relax and watch how the master of making money steals a few billion from uncle Sam. You have to love it.

[Blobe]

What would Joe The Plumber do ?

[tick123]

I feel like if we bail them out they will continue to fail...unless they start making the EU models in the states

[mingus2112]

Any of you guys read Lee Iacocca's book "Where have all the leaders gone?" It's a fascinating book overall, but there's a good section (may even be a whole chapter) on his time at Chrysler, the time after and his thoughts on the current auto industry.

The main thing that I got from that section and remember today is how he compared the American auto industry to that of Japan. Think about this: How many sedans does GM have? Compare that to Nissan. How many coups does Ford have? Compare that to Toyota. All of these american companies are products of decades of mergers and acquisitions. Each time they kept most of the product line. Chrysler did a REALLY balsy thing by dropping the Plymouth name. But it was really something that needed to be done.

These companies need to trim the fat. They don't have the brand loyalty because their product lines are so thin.

As for the size of our vehicles vs the size of European vehicles. . .it's easy to see how that happened. When I first got my license, gas was 79cents a gallon. Roads in the US are, for the most part, three times the size of roads in European towns. We just have the ROOM for these cars and they were cheap enough to operate when we got hooked on them.

Now we like our big roomy cars and gas is too expensive.

So bailout? Yeah. . .but some restrictions should apply. Get rid of redundant product lines. How much different could a Ford SUV be than its Lincoln and Mercury counterparts?

-James

[mb7000]

Posh, if you can take another one, it's interesting reading. I could read these blogs all day. http://secondcitycop.blogspot.com/


I book marked yours, it's also a good read.

have you tried kindle yet ?

[Posh]

Posh, if you can take another one, it's interesting reading. I could read these blogs all day. http://secondcitycop.blogspot.com/


I book marked yours, it's also a good read.

have you tried kindle yet ?

I am going to take a look now and see what it's all about!

I really don't know a thing about the Kindle. I know of the name and what it is supposed to do but I have no idea why it is revolutionary. There's many ebook reading products that have been introduced over the years. Why is this special? Do you have one?

[quizvan]

The key differentiator between the Kindle and other readers is that books are directly downloaded onto a Kindle via built-in 3G, whereas most if not all other readers require the intervention of a computer. I've downloaded books while at the beach, and I've heard of other people getting the NYT on their Kindle every morning while touring Bhutan.
Amazon also offers a much broader range of digital books for the Kindle than any other reader does. The Kindle will be updated sometime in 2009 to correct its flaws, but it's a pretty good first pass. I am an avid reader, and I hate being caught without a book or magazine, so I LOVE my Kindle. I was very skeptical of it initially; but after receiving one as a gift last summer, I was won over. I still read print books of course -- they're free at the library vs. ~$10 on my Kindle

[Posh]

The key differentiator between the Kindle and other readers is that books are directly downloaded onto a Kindle via built-in 3G, whereas most if not all other readers require the intervention of a computer. I've downloaded books while at the beach, and I've heard of other people getting the NYT on their Kindle every morning while touring Bhutan.
Amazon also offers a much broader range of digital books for the Kindle than any other reader does. The Kindle will be updated sometime in 2009 to correct its flaws, but it's a pretty good first pass. I am an avid reader, and I hate being caught without a book or magazine, so I LOVE my Kindle. I was very skeptical of it initially; but after receiving one as a gift last summer, I was won over. I still read print books of course -- they're free at the library vs. ~$10 on my Kindle

What a minute? I can have just about any book I want at any place I want it with the touch of a button? Are you sh*ttin' me? That's awesome! Oh, I think this might be something I actually have to have. This is a good idea then because I'm always somewhere and get recommended a book and end up forgetting it or not finding it at the library. And I usually won't buy a book until I'm convinced of it's usefulness or it moves me. LOL Like Happy Victims by Tsuzuki Kyoichi. Because I'm definitely a happy victim.

[tenacious_b]

I say bail them out for the good of the economy, but completely purge all management and executives, and divest all board members. These idiots cannot be allowed to keep lining their pockets by driving companies into the toilet. Hell, anybody could do that, so give some body else a chance. I've got my resume ready. Hell, I took a startup from the starting line to a 12 million dollar a year company, and we started out with $90,000.00 and grew the company organically, doing nothing that wasn't profitable, and incurred no debt to achieve growth. From zero to $12million annually took 6 years, but we've never had a lay off, we've never missed payroll, and we've never not grown a healthy % year over year. I'll put my resume up against any of these cronies any day of the week. They are thieves, nothing less.

[1%world]

I support the auto bailout far more than even the bank bailouts. Of course that's in hindsight. Had the banks actually used the bailout money to thaw credit for average people the way it was sold it wouldve been fine. But they didn't. Now they won't even tell us what they did with it. The auto industry employs average working people and I just don't think we can let that industry die. And if an auto worker makes $70 k a year good for them. We don't scrutinize the financial workers or lawyers or atletes or actors on what they get paid. Its class warfare

[TEAMFATMAN]

Posh,

I have been away for a while - and now you have your OWN forum - COOL!!!

I read this thread with open eyes and understand the thoughts and reasons both for and against....

But what has prompted me to post is an intersting article in the SMH - Yes it applies to Australia - but considering that when you sneeze (the US - not you ) we catch a cold - I thought it is sort of relevant.....

The biggest enemy of "working families" is not the financial crisis. It is the Prime Minister, Kevin Rudd, and his offensive and simplistic suggestion that middle Australia should show restraint in wage negotiations so as not to compromise their jobs.

People are not morally obliged to remedy problems not of their doing. Families struggling to afford the necessities of modern life made no contribution to the financial problems. They owe nothing to the rest of community when it comes to wage negotiations.

The suggestion that more money for bosses equals more jobs for workers breaks the laws of economics and human nature. Trickle-down economics has long been discredited; there are simply too many greedy sponges at the top. Rudd's call for wage restraint is a misguided justification for employers to exploit the vulnerable by undervaluing the toils of their labour.

Moreover, imposing the same wage disciplines on rich and poor is a contemptible case of economic discrimination. Rich and poor come from vastly different starting points to attain human flourishing. Even slight reductions in purchasing power are felt far more heavily by those who are wanting. Being forced to sell the family home tends to ache a lot more than having to think twice before choosing to fly first class or business class on the next holiday.

Rudd's decision to defer a wage rise for federal politicians is a meaningless gesture for setting the tone for how many other Australians should behave. The financial pressures experienced by politicians with their $100,000 plus annual salaries and brimming superannuation entitlements - most of which, unlike for other Australians, are guaranteed - are negligible compared with those faced by many battling to save the roof over their heads.

But won't pay rises for the middle class encourage high-income earners to go hard in wage negotiations? No, they already do that. They always have, and they always will.

Even if there was evidence to suggest pay rises for the middle class would damage the economy, workers should still bargain for all they are worth. Admittedly, the reaches of our moral and civic duties are not confined to redressing problems of our doing. In some cases individuals need to help others or make sacrifices for the good of the community.

However, circumstances requiring such benevolence are rare. They are defined by the maxim of positive duty, which prescribes that we must help others in serious trouble, when assistance would immensely help them at no or little inconvenience to ourselves.

That is why it is repugnant to refuse to throw a rope to a person drowning near a pier, but why we are entitled to decline to allow a homeless person to live in our spare bedroom.

It is also why developing countries are entitled to refuse to adopt greenhouse targets. Global warning has been caused solely by Western nations, whose use of cheap energy increased their prosperity, while at the same time refusing to share the largesse with the largely hungry Third World. People in developing nations are no less entitled to improve their lot.

Why should hungry people in the Third World care if their use of fossil fuel risks making future people less prosperous? Current destitution bites more harshly than potential future discomfort.

On the economic home front, middle Australia is the very constituency feeling the economic pinch and is already immensely inconvenienced by rising costs. That is why it is impertinent for Rudd to urge it to show wage restraint. Middle Australians need - and are entitled to - every cent they can get in wage increases.

Moreover, they should not only be leaning on their employers to improve their lot. The Government also needs to step in. Most Australians will welcome the recently mooted tax cuts later this year. But their problem - as always - is that they will most benefit the rich.

No Australian living below the poverty line should pay tax. It is mindless, especially as they are then subsidised by the welfare system. It is bureaucratic, unjustifiable nonsense. About 10 per cent of Australians are living below the poverty line (about $700 a week for a family of four).

Instead of finding new ways to betray the constituency that gave him power, Rudd could contemplate one good reason for not increasing the tax-free threshold to the poverty line...