Cars That Go Boom: Detroit's Big Three & Me

[Posh]

I am getting very concerned for US automakers. And not just at the idea that they may go under but what it could do to the economy of our nation (and perception of our economy) right down from Wall Street to the oft-invoked Main Street. The shock waves of a failure of any of these firms is as economist David H. Wang said to BloggingStocks "economically and psychologically unacceptable."

But did I help a little in their slide recently? I don't think I did but it doesn't help that I at least feel that way right now because I'm not driving a Detroit piece of luxury iron. But before you say that I'm an unpatriotic, femiNazi liberal socialist (I'm actually a capitalistic, Marxist Surrendered Wife-ist), let me say this: just before I graduated from college, my bad ass drove a Chevrolet, a gift from my parents. Not just any Chevrolet but this:

It was an automatic, don't worry, or else it would have needed a new transmission! And while I like and love fast cars, not that I want to actually drive one myself, most I would never want to live with on a daily basis, the Z28 SS included, and really just prefer being driven in one. It chewed up any little Rice Rocket people and Mustank owners easily, and that was fulfilling, but it should have been a weekend car not a primary car so I sold it a little while ago and got myself a Mercedes. My parents drive Jaguars, ones made during Ford's "stewardship," and also have a Ford F-250 King Ranch to pull my mother's horses. So they're not traitors. But are the rest of us?

I was speaking with some colleagues in the financial industry recently, each of us representing the automotive, retail and luxury sectors, and we all agreed that nothing bad has really come out of Detroit since the 1990s, except for maybe Eminem. These three companies face many problems but bad product isn't really one them. They face rising legacy costs (which I had no issue with because of the time at which they were struck but find problematic now), import competition which was allowed to flourish unchecked (while in their home countries our products faced numerous financial hurdles put in place by their governments to protect their national firms) and they also face the seeming contempt by many Americans against their rescue (something no other country's citizens would seem to do if one of their industries were failing).

The failure of any company is bad but the failure of these American institutions would be disasterous for not only themselves, but for many people who depend on them worldwide for income, money infuses many communities and local governments with revenue. This is not the same situation Moore's Flint, Michigan encountered in Roger & Me. The impact of losing Ford, Chrysler and General Motors could be far more cataclysmic than the loss of companies like Stearns and Lehman Brothers where over 50% of their profits were paid out in bonuses to fewer employees than make up even one shift at Chevrolet's Bowling Green, Kentucky plant.

What is everyone else's thoughts and feelings on this? Please, let your ideas or opinions be heard!

[Pugwash]

Let GM die.

They make cars nobody wants and do so badly.

Why do they get special treatment from the US Government? How many bail-outs have they had?

[onzenuub]

Nice question Posh, because of letting the companies go not only the people working in those companies will be affected but also the companies which deliver to those 3. So a lot of families will have been affected by this and because of that a big part of economy in USA and worldwide. So for now, support the 3.

[Posh]

Let GM die.

They make cars nobody wants and do so badly.

Why do they get special treatment from the US Government? How many bail-outs have they had?

They haven't ever really had any, Pug. Chrysler had one in the early 1980s and the government ended up making almost $350 million on the deal. Recently, Chrysler actually was making a sound profit but the costs of their pension funds and healthcare costs eroded much of it! The same with all three, really.

It's easy to say let GM die but what's your reasoning behind it? That's what I want to get to, the thought processes behind why people think these multi-national companies should be alllowed to go down, taking so many people down with them.

[Pugwash]

Nice question Posh, because of letting the companies go not only the people working in those companies will be affected but also the companies which deliver to those 3. So a lot of families will have been affected by this and because of that a big part of economy in USA and worldwide. So for now, support the 3.

So, the US people should give money to GM workers so they can sell them crappy cars?

Save something worthwhile; not GM.

All those sailors put out of work when the slave trade was shut down, the coal miners in the UK, telegraph operators, valve radio companies ...

Things end, prolonging them artificially causes more long-term damage.

[$~mLuMaN83~$]

I dont buy domestics and I dont care about the bailout. I keep my money and "investments" in safe places. Which will never be discussed with the likes of you fools.

Hope they have a great time cuz I dont give a sh*t. Mean to say but I dont.

[louisruby]

i want to know why the big companies will wait until there is no oil until they change the product they make. just because there is oil left doesnt mean we have to use it. yes they have made token efforts to produce green cars, but if they really committed to them, they might be able to reproduce the market dominance they once had. if they get US government funds they should come with some pretty serious strings attached and a repayment plan as well.
i feel very sorry for those who stand to lose a job, regardless of the types of cars they make.

[Pugwash]

the thought processes behind why people think these multi-national companies should be alllowed to go down, taking so many people down with them.

Is GM really a multi-national? They're a US company that owns a few foreign brands.

Right, you have one car per person who can drive in the US. Should the money really be pushed into trying to make more? If it's just the jobs you're wanting to say, then say so, because the companies themselves are screwed.

A good solution I heard was to give GM a government contract to make the federal car (or something) that would be a hugely efficient car/truck used by all government forces and partly paid for in advance like is done with the defence industry. Or tell them to make some military stuff.

If they're being propped up purely to keep jobs, don't do it. Create new jobs.

[opak]

I dont buy domestics and I dont care about the bailout. I keep my money and "investments" in safe places. Which will never be discussed with the likes of you fools.

Hope they have a great time cuz I dont give a sh*t. Mean to say but I dont.

[bpumod]

maybe we should just condense the big three into one. merge or die. i grew up in detroit and pretty much everyone i knew worked for the auto companies. any one of these companies dying would be absolutely catastrophic for employees and familes, local and national. i really hope we can figure out a way to make them successful.

[Posh]

[quote=$~mLuMaN83~$;485272]I dont buy domestics and I dont care about the bailout. I keep my money and "investments" in safe places. Which will never be discussed with the likes of you fools.

Hope they have a great time cuz I dont give a sh*t. Mean to say but I dont.[/quote]

I think I know who chose 'I don't care.!' And what don't you like about domestics in particular that would make you choose a foreign brand?

i want to know why the big companies will wait until there is no oil until they change the product they make. just because there is oil left doesnt mean we have to use it. yes they have made token efforts to produce green cars, but if they really committed to them, they might be able to reproduce the market dominance they once had. if they get US government funds they should come with some pretty serious strings attached and a repayment plan as well.
i feel very sorry for those who stand to lose a job, regardless of the types of cars they make.

The money will come with serious strings, Lou, and some of them the automakers don't like but not for the reasons you would initially think.

Pug, taking them down the road of government contractor sounds pretty good actually. Would it solve problems long-term or only temporarily?

[Pugwash]

Pug, taking them down the road of government contractor sounds pretty good actually. Would it solve problems long-term or only temporarily?]

That would depend on the quality of work they did.

If they kept doing what they're doing, it would be a short-term fix and then you're back to where you are today.

Face it, if they made decent cars, they'd not be in trouble.


ps. http://pacificgatepost.blogspot.com/...m-friends.html

[Posh]

That would depend on the quality of work they did.

If they kept doing what they're doing, it would be a short-term fix and then you're back to where you are today.

Face it, if they made decent cars, they'd not be in trouble.


ps. http://pacificgatepost.blogspot.com/2008/11/solution-for-detroit-gm-friends.html

What exactly is wrong with their cars? Which cars do you feel are 'indecent?' There seems to be a stigma attached to them that is entirely based on their product which is the best its ever been, eclipsing many import products in certain categories.

[$~mLuMaN83~$]

The only dometics that I would buy would be a Roush Mustang, 67 Camaro SS, Viper, GM or chevy truck (If I couldnt have a Toyota truck), and thats it.

I think the newer stuff, besides GM trucks, are expensive, poorly made, and most importantly, for the most part have a very generous dose of ugly put into each vehicle with pride.





Piggy bank?...


AAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!

If you only had a clue brother. LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Pugwash]

What exactly is wrong with their cars? Which cars do you feel are 'indecent?' There seems to be a stigma attached to them that is entirely based on their product which is the best its ever been, eclipsing many import products in certain categories.[/COLOR][/SIZE]

If they're selling so well, why are they in trouble?

What's wrong with their cars is that they don't sell.

Why they don't sell is a matter left to experts, but the fact they don't sell, in spite of some of the best brand awareness in the world and some dead easy marketing, is the important bit.

No matter how much you defend the quality of car they build, they are proven to either suck or be perceived to suck. There's no way around it.

[BigWatchPilot]

Let GM die.

They make cars nobody wants and do so badly.

Why do they get special treatment from the US Government? How many bail-outs have they had?

I have many thoughts on this but I have to take the family out for a bite to eat so I will keep this short for now. Pug...do you feel the same way about the only Government subsidized aircraft manufacturer? Perhaps we should let Airbus go out of business and leave the airplane making to Boeing. Airbus has proven this time and time again...and most recently with the A380.

BWP....if it aint Boeing, Im not going!
A300 Pilot

[rAc]

no.

[collector26]

Throwing money at Detroit is like new needles for a junkie.
You can't shine s**t.
Starvation is a great motivator for innovation.

[$~mLuMaN83~$]

Throwing money at Detroit is like new needles for a junkie.
You can't shine s**t.
Starvation is a great motivator for innovation.

WOOO!


Btw... Any word for a new gtg? Zach starts stuff and never finishes. He always takes credit for everything I do. I'm not kidding one bit either.

[tomhorn]

Unfortunately, bailing out the automakers is necessary. It's not about saving the companies, it's about saving the jobs.

Whether or not anyone agrees the jobs should be saved, if they are not we will be looking at the DJIA at 5,000, and the current economic situation will seem like a walk in the park.

Should the bailout have conditions? You bet. But it's got to get done.

[Dave123]

I have owned 3 Trans Am's,1 Z28,2 Vettes a Grand Prix and i own a Charger R/T,though i don't really like Dodge,the plant that makes the car is down the street from me,just supporting the local guys...i rarely drive it.

I will always buy Chev's,never had a problem with mine,i just won't do the asian thing,aside from doing my wife,who is asian....after that i draw the line

She drives a C350,an o.k car,but not one of my Chev's.....i love em and they are a part of our history here,will leave it at that.

Like a bumper sticker i have seen many times 'Out of a job yet?...keep buying foreign!'......keep it up,you guys are hurtin as it is.

[$~mLuMaN83~$]

Im sorry...The Vette is cool too.

Actually...come to think of it this is very sad. The history of the Vette is incredivle, full of triump, and is legendary for America. Pretty crazy to actually think of the end of the Corvette. That actually makes me a bit sick to my stomach.

Wow... Never thought about that.

No more Corvette...



Im gonna go drink myself to sleep now.

If this does indeed happen we must have a thread for a Corvette tribute!!! Never let the racing flags die!

[stevie7s]

Bail 'em out. we can't afford to have a million more people collecting un-employment checks.

I just got a Chrysler 300 SRT as my work car w/ my promotion and I can tell you that you guys can keep your silly little rice burning play toys. I will wave to you as I motor past you.

[hustler]

I work in a shop for a Saturn dealership. If gm tanks, I and everyone else there will loose their job. Another GM brand is having issues, and my owner already shut down that store and that brands shop at this location.
From a personal perspective, I don't want GM to tank. So many people will loose jobs. It could start with me and my crew, and just trickle around the globe as I've heard it would. Given today's BOOMING economic situation...this can not be a good thing.

But I can also easily step away from it to view the big picture...Before recently, GM has been slacking on a lot of their product in the way the public liked them vs forign cars. Things got sloppy; exterior styling got mundane, interiors got boring and cheap, and just were overall lackluster cars. The last few years (ESPECIALLY) with saturn have turned over more attractive cars that people are now choosing over foreign cars based on aesthetics along with the people who are brand/USA loyal. To get specific, interiors are now made with better looking material with nice tight panel gaps inside and out on top of mostly improved exterior styling to boot. (the durability of these materials on my end .....I can get into a whole other story on that lol) Plain and simple, they are just more attractive now.
So why didn't they do this 10 years ago???? If they did, they could be on top of the game. But they waited until the public's perception of gm's cars became very poor before they turned it around and started trying again. Because things take a while to catch up, not everyone is going to jump on the wagon and buy all big three again just because they are getting better review from critics and their neighbors alike. It takes time to win over people you've lost. Time they don't have right now. Especially with the doom cloud so low in Detroit.

Back to the bailout proposal, a shot in the arm would just be temporary overall I believe. I don't think they could survive on that ration long enough for people to play catch up, buying enough cars that should be sold now (due to the above paragraph), putting them in the black.
So how many times will it need to be done?? And how many other businesses out there will expect the same thing? Like said before in this thread, there will have to be some steep stipulations if the gov is going to hand gm cash as far as what to do with it. And like the Chrysler bailout in the 80's, It will actually need to make them money.
I just don't see how you could justify it in the long run. Too many questions as of now that I'm not hearing answers to from those who make decisions.



So my opinion for now at least...Sorry GM...its time.

[hustler]

stevie7s does bring up a valid point though, because probably most everyone will collect if that happens...I wonder what that will cost vs their proposed bailout. The taxpayers will pay one way or another.